what is organic?

[Guest]

The use or missus of words has developed more rapidly in the last 10 years or so, organic being one of them. It is clear that when in doubt falling back on the current establishment notion is a simple first thought. As gardeners we have much in common, (but then again even the term gardener can have lots of meanings) as in the wider country we will all have different notions of just what a garden is.
My own way or organic gardening has been developed over the years - first read John Seymour’s The Fat of the Land in the 1960’s and his joint effort with his wife Sally - Self-Sufficiency in the early 70’s and Lawrence D. Hills Organic Gardening about the same time. I use nothing but Comfrey and poultry to feed the land and use no sprays or powders. That to me is organic.
Tom Parsons
Organic Gardener
Somerset

[paul.r]

Good for you Tom. I'm from the same school,read the same books (what was that little book about the herbal compost activator?)bought the same t shirt, but I must admit to using slug pellets and bought in potting compost these days. Apart from that in all honesty i dont take any action against pest or diseases except the barrier method. Its either that what we were told about the soil being in good heart producing robust plants is working or the longer your at it the less important these seemingly (when starting out) horrendous problems become....best rgds paul.

[paul.r]

ooh i just couldnt let it lie. Common sense compost making by the quick return method. by Maye E. Bruce. Really fired my imagination all them years ago. I must still have a copy somewhere.

[Johnboy]

Hi Richard,
I missed the word Viable out of my previous posting
and do apologise for doing so. I therefore apologise for incorrectly quoting you.

[peat]

Monsanto agree that Percy Schmeisir did not buy any gm canola. He was found guilty of using their technology, the same as we would be if we bought items in good faith and they were found to be stolen. We are then liable to prosecution for handling and receiving stolen goods.
more of what monsanto are actually upto is in the following link.
If gm is allowed in this country and monsanto act the way they do in America then most of the farmers will become bankrupt through no fault of their own.

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/pubs ... 3.2005.pdf

[Mr Potato Head]

So, firstly, let's try and keep the sniping to a minimum.

Secondly, I think it'd be a really good idea for people to post as many links to relevant articles (from both sides of the GM debate) so that we can all read around this issue.

Thirdly, and I know I've said this before, but let's try and clear up this fairly semantic argument. Organic, certainly in terms of domestic gardening, means the process of growing plants without the aid of artificially produced chemicals or other substances.

Whatever your views on the definition; If being 'organic' means that you are striving to minimise your impact on your environment, and that you make every effort to be made to minimise this impact, whether it's reducing food miles, seed collecting or whatever, then I think we can all agree this is probably a good thing.

Finally, as for organic veg being somehow inferior - just how perfect does a tomato have to be? Thank God for companies like Monsanto, saving the human race from extinction... how would we all have got this far, if they hadn't thoughtfully patented the stuff we eat?

[Colin Miles]

Just to add, possibly confusion, hopefully not, to the question of semantics. Genetically modified plants have been around for a long time. Apart from the 'natural' process of selection which has taken place since man began farming, from the 1920's onward a very large number of flowers, fruit and vegetables have been subject to improvement by x-rays, neutron bombardment, chemical doping, etc.. However, these did not involve the transfer of genes from one type of plant or animal (all life share genes!) to another. So apart from the question of how 'natural' many of our existing varieties are, the GM debate should really be called Transgenic selection or 'improvement' or whatever you like. And whatever your view of these improvements, the purpose as far as the use of chemical sprays is concerned, is actually to reduce their use and that certainly happens in most cases. Ideally, all crops would be produced 'naturally' with minimal intervention by man, whether that be using 'natural' or 'unnatural' means, by in real life that isn't possible. I have a strong feeling that one reason why the level of trace elements may have declined in soils is due to a reduction in pollution levels from the decline in heavy industry. Simple plant chemistry dictates that they take up many elements that they don't actually need.

[richard p]

i can see the argument that genetic modification could potentially be of great benefit to mankind, unfortunatly currently the processes seems to have been patented by a few companies who have no interest in the good of mankind, they apear to be focussing on short term financial gain for themselves with no care or thought to the long term consequences for the planet as a whole.

[Tony Hague]

And whatever your view of these improvements, the purpose as far as the use of chemical sprays is concerned, is actually to reduce their use and that certainly happens in most cases.

I'm going to have to differ here. Transgenic seed will only sell to farmers if they offer a financial advantage. The advantage offered by many of the currently available transgenic crops is glyphosate resistance ("Roundup ready") - allowing the use of CHEAPER herbicide, and not necessarily less of it.

In parts of Australia they now have glyphosate resistant blackgrass, and some farmers band-spraying paraquat to try to deal with it. Some progress !

[Allan]

What a pity that a discussion on what is understood by the term Organic (or organic) has deteriorated to the tired old arguments about GM, with quotes from what is supposed to be happening to field crops, not garden and allotment ones. They are totally seperate issues. Heaven help us if we really depended on the Soil Association to defend us from the, alleged, harm that THEY say could come from use of GM crops.
Allan

[richard p]

if we accept a few holes in a lettuce leaf or a bit of scab on an apple are just cosmetic and do not affect the nutritional value just what percentage of the pesticides sprayed on our fruit and veg are just to make it look cosmetically perfect on the shop shelf ie really a total waste of resourses.

[Allan]

You are quite right, Richard but you just tell that to the supermarkets or to 50% of the customers. They want it both ways, Organic yet cosmetically perfect. Fortunately a large percentage of our customers at the local health food shop seem to accept such things as a moderate number of slug holes in the Swiss Chard, they might not be so happy if they knew what caused the holes. The shops will never get the full flavour of tomatoes if they insist on picking them them less than fully ripened and bounce-proof with a long shelf life for 12 months of the year. No fancy packaging will sort that one out. Henceforth we will only grow red trench celery and accept the slug problem, it has far better flavour than the self-blanched American style stuff.
Anyone who has grown sweetcorn or peas will know that they have to be cooked or blanched almost immediately to preserve tenderness and flavour.
Allan

[Colin Miles]

Tony, I wasn't claiming progress, merely stating facts. Yes, herbicide resistance to a greater or lesser extent is inevitable in the long-term, which is why there is a constant in battle in nature itself as well as by man 'on nature'. A Californian institute (sorry Mr. Potato Head - lost the link) estimate that since the early 60's 216 weeds have developed herbicide resistance. Survival of the fittest and all that. That is why new varieties of plants of all sorts are constantly needed and why varieties which are resistant to one disease or pest invariably succumb in the long-run, whether it is the result of our over-use or not in actually growing too much or in the use of herbicides/pesticides. The 'organic' approach has much to offer, as have the ideals behind the movement (as Johnboy has pointed out), but if it ties itself up in rules and over-regulation and becomes more like a religion, everyone will lose out.