Hi Richard,
I am awaiting a reply from Peat as to what a Terminator Genetic Plant is. However I am not holding my breath and advise you accordingly.
I take it that the preceeding posting from yours is from Tom who has failed to Identify himself so if it is from someboby else please forgive my reply.
H Tom,
It is all very well stating for 'home gardeners' and not Commercial Outlets because it makes one hell of a difference.
I am not organic but I use virtually no chemicals at all but the difference is that I am now not commercial I am free to do as I please and the use of chemicals do not affect any organic status I may have. I use far less chemicals than an organic producer but the difference between me and an organic producer is that I have the option to use a chemical that will do the job properly.
I have been involved with organics for more than 60 years now and I have with dismay watched something I once held dear ruined by SA dogma. The founding fathers of Organics used chemicals responsibly and produced absolutely wonderful sound produce yet today the restrictions put on people are is certain cases beyond belief.
For the record I used 1.5L of made up chemical the entire year. This was to very rapidly dispose of some White Fly that infected my Brassicas when I gale torn my anti white fly netting and I did not spot it for a couple of days after the gale.
I agree with what Tony has said if I wanted to eat produce with chemicals there is really no point in growing them yourself just go to a supermarket.
This bit about growing with nature is an absolute load of codswallop because the very fact that you are putting seeds into a given area is something that nature never intended. Nature never intended for the plants to even be eaten.
The sheer fact that more than 75% of Supermarket Organic produce is imported should give people an indication as to what British growers think of the rules as laid down by the SA.
I am still waiting for a reply from Peat!
what is organic?
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud
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Anonymous
I would like to go back to the guest comment, about the 'domestic' gardener, as opposed to commercial.
We do not have the luxury of an allotment, we only have the ground around our home to grow crops. It is considerably smaller that I would like, but we manage to get quite a lot of edible food from what we have.
We rely on companion planting (marigolds) with the tomatoes in the greenhouse, etc. The only other edible plant that we grow that it really succeptible to bugs (ie vine weevil) is strawberries. We would not consider using something like Provado on them. Whilst I accept that the product is not recommended for use on edible crops, I would have no hesitation in using it is hanging baskets/containers.
We do keep the edible and ornamentals completely separate.
The food crops we grow have had no chemicals (other than blood, fish and bone), and our home produced compost, courtesy of our kitchen scraps, etc.
I think that this is the fundamental thing about growing your own crops. You do it knowing that it has not been contaminated by any chemicals other than what you have put on them.
Bugger "ORGANICS". You know that what you have produced in your own garden/allotment is as healthy an option as you can get!
Isn't that why we all bother to grow our own? We know what we have done to it, we know that we have not sprayed it with any noxious substances, and by gum it tastes better than anything any supermarket has to offer.
No, we home/allotment growers could not afford the luxury of the EU/Soil Association (or whatever) certification of being ORGANIC, but we know that what we are growing is the most healthy option agoing for us and our families.
Rant over, but I think there may be some of you out there who agree with me (I hope).
Love and kisses,
valmarg
We do not have the luxury of an allotment, we only have the ground around our home to grow crops. It is considerably smaller that I would like, but we manage to get quite a lot of edible food from what we have.
We rely on companion planting (marigolds) with the tomatoes in the greenhouse, etc. The only other edible plant that we grow that it really succeptible to bugs (ie vine weevil) is strawberries. We would not consider using something like Provado on them. Whilst I accept that the product is not recommended for use on edible crops, I would have no hesitation in using it is hanging baskets/containers.
We do keep the edible and ornamentals completely separate.
The food crops we grow have had no chemicals (other than blood, fish and bone), and our home produced compost, courtesy of our kitchen scraps, etc.
I think that this is the fundamental thing about growing your own crops. You do it knowing that it has not been contaminated by any chemicals other than what you have put on them.
Bugger "ORGANICS". You know that what you have produced in your own garden/allotment is as healthy an option as you can get!
Isn't that why we all bother to grow our own? We know what we have done to it, we know that we have not sprayed it with any noxious substances, and by gum it tastes better than anything any supermarket has to offer.
No, we home/allotment growers could not afford the luxury of the EU/Soil Association (or whatever) certification of being ORGANIC, but we know that what we are growing is the most healthy option agoing for us and our families.
Rant over, but I think there may be some of you out there who agree with me (I hope).
Love and kisses,
valmarg
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oldherbaceous
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I have been reading these comments with great interest.I think everyone on here loves gardening, but the one word that always seems to split people is the word ORGANIC.This one word alone seems to cause more bad feeling than any word i know.
Maybe it would be better if one says i am a nature friendly gardener.
At the end of the day we all want some fresh veg to eat.
Kind regards old herbaceous
P.S Your not an MP are you Tom.
It will either rain or get dark.
Maybe it would be better if one says i am a nature friendly gardener.
At the end of the day we all want some fresh veg to eat.
Kind regards old herbaceous
P.S Your not an MP are you Tom.
It will either rain or get dark.
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paul.r
just trying to keep up. Fen not Fen said "I have yet to see a domestic gardener wearing protective gear when spraying" perhaps Fen was the mystery guest....paul.
as i understand it a plant with the terminator gene has had genes added or altered which enable its seeds to develope but as they reach maturity a toxin is released which kills the seeds embryos (aint google wonderful)
there are three implications of this which may cause concern.
1, the inability to save seed for the next crop,ok the same is true of conventional hybreds (F1 seeds).
2, the possibility of the terminator escaping into other crops, making all plants sterile. we can argue this wont happen cos the makers claim the terminator gene has to activated by them before sale of the seed. of course they can never be wrong.
3, if we eat the resulting sterile seeds what are the long term effects of the toxin that has killed the embryos, should pregnant women be concerned? has research been done on long term (many years) effects of this , i doubt it
oh by the way the us department of agriculture co owns the relevant patents along with monsato.
there are three implications of this which may cause concern.
1, the inability to save seed for the next crop,ok the same is true of conventional hybreds (F1 seeds).
2, the possibility of the terminator escaping into other crops, making all plants sterile. we can argue this wont happen cos the makers claim the terminator gene has to activated by them before sale of the seed. of course they can never be wrong.
3, if we eat the resulting sterile seeds what are the long term effects of the toxin that has killed the embryos, should pregnant women be concerned? has research been done on long term (many years) effects of this , i doubt it
oh by the way the us department of agriculture co owns the relevant patents along with monsato.
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paul.r
Hello Johnboy what positive implications can a terminator gene have for plant growers of any scale worldwide?...rgds paul. (or consumers come to that)
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pigletwillie
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We have two allotments and try to be as chemically clean as we can be, I wont say organic. Last year we used some glysophate to clear couch grass on our new plot and that was it. We also aim to eat seasonal stuff if we have to buy as I fear air miles are far more damaging than being anal about the term "organic"
Our produce tastes better than most bought stuff because our soil is fed with manure and compost and is not reliant on packet chemical feeds, it tastes better because its fresh, it tastes better because it carries no air miles and it tastes better because WE grew it, nurtured it and cooked it.
Lots of local varieties of veg seeds have gone by the wayside because the big seed boys sell us domestic sized packets of commercial seed that require high intensity growing to be at their best. If you look at companies like Seeds of Italy and the Real seed company, you can buy seed that has been grown for generations because it is good and tasty but not perhaps the heaviest cropper or at all uniform. F1 seeds are definitly not natural, but then neither is growing rows of one variety or polytunnels full of tomatoes.
The reason that most of our organic veg is imported is because as usual, our beaurocrats bugger everything up by adding so many rules and regulations as to make it nigh on imposible to be organic in their sense. No where on earth is the label "organic" so tied down by useless rules and regulations as in the UK.
In reality is Organic a term anybody can say they are 100% true to , what about those non organic pineapple parings that went into our compost bin last week, along with non organic orange peel or is that being pedantic.
Our produce tastes better than most bought stuff because our soil is fed with manure and compost and is not reliant on packet chemical feeds, it tastes better because its fresh, it tastes better because it carries no air miles and it tastes better because WE grew it, nurtured it and cooked it.
Lots of local varieties of veg seeds have gone by the wayside because the big seed boys sell us domestic sized packets of commercial seed that require high intensity growing to be at their best. If you look at companies like Seeds of Italy and the Real seed company, you can buy seed that has been grown for generations because it is good and tasty but not perhaps the heaviest cropper or at all uniform. F1 seeds are definitly not natural, but then neither is growing rows of one variety or polytunnels full of tomatoes.
The reason that most of our organic veg is imported is because as usual, our beaurocrats bugger everything up by adding so many rules and regulations as to make it nigh on imposible to be organic in their sense. No where on earth is the label "organic" so tied down by useless rules and regulations as in the UK.
In reality is Organic a term anybody can say they are 100% true to , what about those non organic pineapple parings that went into our compost bin last week, along with non organic orange peel or is that being pedantic.
Kindest regards Piglet
"You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind".
"You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind".
Re Paul R's question - the justification for terminator genes in GM crops as far as I understand it is that it prevents these altered crops escaping into the wild and reproducing. OK but farmers in poor countries then have to grow cash crops to buy seeds, rather than food to feed people, and if it crossed into other plants we could kiss our collective backsides goodbye.
Another example is GM is great - we can breed disease resistance into crops - yes but the widest use so far to make crops herbicide resistant so you can spray more chemicals. As you will have guessed, I'm wary of GM but I can see it could have great benefits if used wisely.
Like most other people who have replied I'm not 100% organic either at work (retail plants) or home, but am 'nature friendly'and use the bare minimum of pesticides. This is the catch-all word used in the industry to describe any preparation used to treat weeds, plant diseases or pests. Organic and chemical are words which rile people because we are all organic life forms comprised of chemicals.
100% organic may scare off some people because it seems too hard, but it's got some good common sense principles behind it. If we grow what we can, feed the soil, compost to reduce land fill, keep artifical fertilisers and pesticides to a minimum and buy everything else as locally as we can, that will really change the world. Up the revolution kids
Sue
Another example is GM is great - we can breed disease resistance into crops - yes but the widest use so far to make crops herbicide resistant so you can spray more chemicals. As you will have guessed, I'm wary of GM but I can see it could have great benefits if used wisely.
Like most other people who have replied I'm not 100% organic either at work (retail plants) or home, but am 'nature friendly'and use the bare minimum of pesticides. This is the catch-all word used in the industry to describe any preparation used to treat weeds, plant diseases or pests. Organic and chemical are words which rile people because we are all organic life forms comprised of chemicals.
100% organic may scare off some people because it seems too hard, but it's got some good common sense principles behind it. If we grow what we can, feed the soil, compost to reduce land fill, keep artifical fertilisers and pesticides to a minimum and buy everything else as locally as we can, that will really change the world. Up the revolution kids
Sue
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oldherbaceous
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That was very nicely put sue.
I Wish i was that good with words.
Kind regards Old herbaceous.
It will either rain or get dark.
I Wish i was that good with words.
Kind regards Old herbaceous.
It will either rain or get dark.
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Mig
I don't think it's possible for anyone (commercial or domestic) to be totally chemical-free because you have to take into account the stuff that rains down from the sky! I remember many years ago, after the Chernobyl leak, our government was quick to reassure people that all affected grazing animals would be destroyed so the fallout wouldn't get into our food chain. DUH??? Just run that past me again? So we were supposed to accept that sheep were the only edible things the sh-you-know-what fell on? I don't FINK so! Same thing with trying to keep nasty chemicals off our home-grown crops, which I try to do, but you know -- we aren't living in a sterile bubble, it's all part of living in this wonderful modern world we have created.
the terminator gene is there to supposedly make the seeds sterile so that they cannot be saved, which most of the worlds farmers do. At the moment it is banned but the US government and other governments are trying to lift the ban.
Many of the large seed companies in the USA have been taken over by Monsanto and their subsidiaries.
I am not a total organic gardener as I use peat and multipurpose compost and would use slug pellets if needed.
The main worry about gm crops is not whether they will be of benefit, because a lot could well be, but that the control of them will be concentrated in a small number of hands and we will not know what is in them.
People with allergies could be eating foods that are poisonous to them without there knowledge. There are already pigs and chickens bred that contain human dna as a marker so that the chemical companies can sue if some one inadverdently use their products. It has already happened in America where growers have used their own non gm saved seed that has been contaminated with gm pollen from neighbouring gm crops. The chemical companies then have the right to sue them for breach of copyright.
Pete
Many of the large seed companies in the USA have been taken over by Monsanto and their subsidiaries.
I am not a total organic gardener as I use peat and multipurpose compost and would use slug pellets if needed.
The main worry about gm crops is not whether they will be of benefit, because a lot could well be, but that the control of them will be concentrated in a small number of hands and we will not know what is in them.
People with allergies could be eating foods that are poisonous to them without there knowledge. There are already pigs and chickens bred that contain human dna as a marker so that the chemical companies can sue if some one inadverdently use their products. It has already happened in America where growers have used their own non gm saved seed that has been contaminated with gm pollen from neighbouring gm crops. The chemical companies then have the right to sue them for breach of copyright.
Pete
skype me on pmrout
"To be a successful farmer, one must first know the NATURE of the SOIL" Xenophon , Oeconomicus 400 B.C.
"To be a successful farmer, one must first know the NATURE of the SOIL" Xenophon , Oeconomicus 400 B.C.
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Tony Hague
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Anonymous wrote:Can I make it clear I said "domestic gardener" - I'm not talking about commercial growers.
Just to resolve any confusion - Anonymous in this case was me (Tony). Forgot to log in first - sorry !
just to clear up one point , terminator technology was not developed to stop modified plants escaping to the wild. It was developed so that anyone wanting the "benefits" of the modified plants has to buy seed from its developer, thereby paying the royalties to the developer.
there was in years gone by a system in place in this country whereby farmers who saved part of there own crop for replanting could pay a royalty to the origional plant breeder.
there was in years gone by a system in place in this country whereby farmers who saved part of there own crop for replanting could pay a royalty to the origional plant breeder.
Hi Richard and Peat,
The system to which you refer is called 'Plant Breeders Rights' and it still exists. The plant is, for want of another word, Patented and you pay the breeder a fee if you want save the seed you have grown to sow again the next year. This also exists with GM crops. The celebrated case where Monsanto sued Percy Schemiser because he tried to get away without paying the levy and was found guilty in all three levels of courts in Canada and was found guilty on all 19 counts against him in all three courts. He bought enough Round-up ready Canola seed for a few acres one year and saved that seed and sowed over 1000 acres the following year and when caught out maintained that it was wind blown onto his crop or fallen from passing lorries. When tested the crop was over 98% pure GM. Some Wind!!! (For those who have no idea how big 1000 acres is there are 640 acres to the square mile.)
Coming to the Teminator Gene; Mansanto stated publicly in 1999 the they will never use the terminator gene on any crop for human or animal comsumption. There are bound to be certain exceptions when a crop is modified to produce a medicinal crop. What it means is that all this argument has been a storm in a teacup!
One of the reason why F1 seeds are expensive is because you pay breeders rights although it is the
Seed House who pays the breeder and passes the cost on to the purchaser.
Richard you are not correct that you do not get seeds from and F1 plant but they generally revert to one or other of the partners. However there are some that actually breed true although it is hardly worth the effort trying.
Peat and Sue,
Do not think that I do not have concerns on several aspects of GM and one is the domination of seeds in just a few hands. But the large companies have the research facitities and resource to fund these projects and see them through.
Several Universities have produce GM organisms with particular uses in mind and then the Anti people ruin everything. There are over 1 Billion Acres of GM crops growing annually world wide and as the next generation of GM becomes available things are improving rapidly. GM is here to stay and we must all try and take a positive stance toward it and start noting the benefits that we can derive from them instead of the negative approach spouted by the Anti brigade. I truly believe that in the years to come GM will become the Organics of the day.
The system to which you refer is called 'Plant Breeders Rights' and it still exists. The plant is, for want of another word, Patented and you pay the breeder a fee if you want save the seed you have grown to sow again the next year. This also exists with GM crops. The celebrated case where Monsanto sued Percy Schemiser because he tried to get away without paying the levy and was found guilty in all three levels of courts in Canada and was found guilty on all 19 counts against him in all three courts. He bought enough Round-up ready Canola seed for a few acres one year and saved that seed and sowed over 1000 acres the following year and when caught out maintained that it was wind blown onto his crop or fallen from passing lorries. When tested the crop was over 98% pure GM. Some Wind!!! (For those who have no idea how big 1000 acres is there are 640 acres to the square mile.)
Coming to the Teminator Gene; Mansanto stated publicly in 1999 the they will never use the terminator gene on any crop for human or animal comsumption. There are bound to be certain exceptions when a crop is modified to produce a medicinal crop. What it means is that all this argument has been a storm in a teacup!
One of the reason why F1 seeds are expensive is because you pay breeders rights although it is the
Seed House who pays the breeder and passes the cost on to the purchaser.
Richard you are not correct that you do not get seeds from and F1 plant but they generally revert to one or other of the partners. However there are some that actually breed true although it is hardly worth the effort trying.
Peat and Sue,
Do not think that I do not have concerns on several aspects of GM and one is the domination of seeds in just a few hands. But the large companies have the research facitities and resource to fund these projects and see them through.
Several Universities have produce GM organisms with particular uses in mind and then the Anti people ruin everything. There are over 1 Billion Acres of GM crops growing annually world wide and as the next generation of GM becomes available things are improving rapidly. GM is here to stay and we must all try and take a positive stance toward it and start noting the benefits that we can derive from them instead of the negative approach spouted by the Anti brigade. I truly believe that in the years to come GM will become the Organics of the day.
JB.