It sounds a daft questions, but what is the exact role that ditches play?
The most obvious observation is that they are meant to collect water. But from where? Is it run off from fields? If so, why wouldn't a farmer want to keep the water in the field itself; after all, crops need moisture. In winter, I can understand the function, but you don't fill ditches in in summer, so how do you prevent moisture loss in the fields. I mean, some farmers have to irrigate fields with hoses, but won't this be a waste of time if you have ditches?!
Go with me on this.
In the early Spring, at our allotment, some plot holders re-emerged after their winter hibernation and began digging. Unfortunately, it then started raining again and a lot went home for several weeks until it stopped.
I didn't and was fascinated to see the v-cuts you get when you pause whilst digging soil filled up with water on a number of plots.
So, I've been pondering on this. We are on heavy clay and on a hill. Last winter, there was extensive waterloggig at the site, with the water table rising to just below the level of the soil. If this is going to be a problem at our site in the future, maybe we should introduce ditches to improve drainage, if water runs off the land and into them.
Just above us on the hill, there is a paddock for horses, with a ditch along the bottom end of the field. When waterlogging was at its worst, this ditch was full to overflowing.
But water in ditches doesn't flow; they seem to act as holding pens, collecting the water until the ground below is able to absorb it.
If this is the case, then allotments like ours which do suffer from extensive waterlogging should possibly think of digging ditches to stop roots of established fruit bushes getting waterlogged. But wouldn't we lose desperately needed mositure in the summer?
Again, I ask: what is the point of ditches?
What's the point of ditches?
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud
- peter
- KG Regular
- Posts: 5842
- Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:54 pm
- Location: Near Stansted airport
- Has thanked: 18 times
- Been thanked: 33 times
- Contact:
They are meant to interconnect and via that lead to streams or rivers, often with some ponds in the chain.
For them to function they need periodic clearing and all culverts or pipes under tracks etc keeping clear.
Your horsey neighbours and their neighbours are not doing that.
Historically as a boundary people dug a ditch, put the spoil as a bank on their side and planted a hedge on top of the bank.
For them to function they need periodic clearing and all culverts or pipes under tracks etc keeping clear.
Your horsey neighbours and their neighbours are not doing that.
Historically as a boundary people dug a ditch, put the spoil as a bank on their side and planted a hedge on top of the bank.
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
the ground is like a sponge, when its damp the capillary action between the soil particles and the organic matter itself combine to retain moisture in the soil mass, in extreemely wet periods theres more water than the soil mass can hold internally so it lies as puddles, bogs or drains sideways into ditches, can also happen in heavy rain where theres more rain falling than can soak in, the ditch should be part of an interconnecting system that eventually ends up in the sea, via the stream and river system.
in dry weather the soil mass drys out , any gentle rain or irrigation is absorbed by the sponge and none reaches the ditch , again heavy rain ie too much in too little time will run off before it can be absorbed down into the soil mass.
in dry weather the soil mass drys out , any gentle rain or irrigation is absorbed by the sponge and none reaches the ditch , again heavy rain ie too much in too little time will run off before it can be absorbed down into the soil mass.
Hi Barry,
Where I live we get a more than average rainfall yet within hours of a rainstorm our ditches have no water. This is because in this part of the country we maintain our ditches. At certain times of the year we get flooding but as the floods subside so the water disappears from our ditches. It is all very affectively managed.
Before you think of digging ditches on your allotments you must decide where the water is going to go and your ditch must be part of an integrated system or you could end up causing another person great difficulties, even flooding.
The people above you may be maintaiing their stretch of the ditch system but somewhere somebody is not.
JB.
Where I live we get a more than average rainfall yet within hours of a rainstorm our ditches have no water. This is because in this part of the country we maintain our ditches. At certain times of the year we get flooding but as the floods subside so the water disappears from our ditches. It is all very affectively managed.
Before you think of digging ditches on your allotments you must decide where the water is going to go and your ditch must be part of an integrated system or you could end up causing another person great difficulties, even flooding.
The people above you may be maintaiing their stretch of the ditch system but somewhere somebody is not.
JB.
JB.
- Ricard with an H
- KG Regular
- Posts: 2145
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:16 am
- Location: North Pembrokeshire. West Wales.
We are always going to have idiots spoiling things, where I live I'm on the side of a valley. The bottom of the valley is know as "The collects". The builders working for those who developed this old farm had clearly never gone to school, they built banks across the slope of the land to create boundaries but those banks are not built in such a way that they will allow water to escape so in our case the septic tank fills with rainwater during worst case years.
The only way I can deal with this is get a JCB in to cut slots in the bank and lay pipes so the rainwater floods the next property, the environment agency said its ok to do that because we all have the right of drainage over someone else's land.
I won't get permission from the owners of the land below to allow a JCB in to dig slots only too flood their property.
Surely someone must have gone to school, but not this far west.
The only way I can deal with this is get a JCB in to cut slots in the bank and lay pipes so the rainwater floods the next property, the environment agency said its ok to do that because we all have the right of drainage over someone else's land.
I won't get permission from the owners of the land below to allow a JCB in to dig slots only too flood their property.
Surely someone must have gone to school, but not this far west.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
Hi Richard,
If the flooding causes your septic tank to overflow in any way that is a matter of public health. If you contact the Public Health Dept of your local council and explain your dilema they may get you the permission to breach the mounds. I would have thought the building inspectors should know if the mounds are legal and were on the plan when the alterations were carried out to the other buildings in the area. Just a thought.
JB.
If the flooding causes your septic tank to overflow in any way that is a matter of public health. If you contact the Public Health Dept of your local council and explain your dilema they may get you the permission to breach the mounds. I would have thought the building inspectors should know if the mounds are legal and were on the plan when the alterations were carried out to the other buildings in the area. Just a thought.
JB.
- Ricard with an H
- KG Regular
- Posts: 2145
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:16 am
- Location: North Pembrokeshire. West Wales.
Some interesting points you made JB, it's a dilemma. The septic tank had been punctured at the bottom for the purpose of aiding water to run off because the drainage field would have been inadequate. When the water table rises high enough we even get the ground water filling the septic tank from underneath.
The has all happened by design, I'm told it's what they do in Pembrokeshire. Sometimes the building inspector doesn't appear on time (for whatever reason) then it's an excuse by the builders to start back-filling.
If i make a fuss now they will probably force me to put right what has already been sneakily passed.
When I prepared the foundations for our garage store/my shed, we waited for the groundwork inspection but he didn't turn up, then the concrete arrived along with the inspector. Both the inspector and the JCB driver were on first name terms and the JCB driver is very respected for his work so a nod and a wink happened as the concrete poured.
The barn attached to has also has a bank stopping top water to go downhill past their septic tank so the waster from heavy rain will fill the tank, presumably bashing holes in the bottom solves the problems.
The has all happened by design, I'm told it's what they do in Pembrokeshire. Sometimes the building inspector doesn't appear on time (for whatever reason) then it's an excuse by the builders to start back-filling.
If i make a fuss now they will probably force me to put right what has already been sneakily passed.
When I prepared the foundations for our garage store/my shed, we waited for the groundwork inspection but he didn't turn up, then the concrete arrived along with the inspector. Both the inspector and the JCB driver were on first name terms and the JCB driver is very respected for his work so a nod and a wink happened as the concrete poured.
The barn attached to has also has a bank stopping top water to go downhill past their septic tank so the waster from heavy rain will fill the tank, presumably bashing holes in the bottom solves the problems.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
bashing a hole in the bottom of a septic tank seems ludicrous... its bound to fill with ground water in wet weather and leak raw sewage continuously, round here they just lay land drains from near the end of the soak away or drainage field to the nearest ditch...that way the end of the soakaway is always in relitavly dry freedraining soil.
- alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
Ricard with an H wrote:The septic tank had been punctured at the bottom for the purpose of aiding water to run off because the drainage field would have been inadequate. When the water table rises high enough we even get the ground water filling the septic tank from underneath.
I'm no expert on septic tanks, but I should have thought that having a hole in the bottom defeats the object of the exercise. Solid matter is supposed to settle at the bottom, so water entering from below is going to disturb this and, as Richard P says, you have an overflow of raw sewage if enough water rises. I'm not sure how Pembrokeshire Environmental Heath Department would view this.
Cred air o bob deg a glywi, a thi a gei rywfaint bach o wir (hen ddihareb Gymraeg)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Hi Richard,
To make a hole in the bottom of a septic tank apart from being extremely foolish is actually illegal. With a situation like that there is no manner of drainage ditch that will help your situation. It seems a dilemma that can not be solved.
JB.
To make a hole in the bottom of a septic tank apart from being extremely foolish is actually illegal. With a situation like that there is no manner of drainage ditch that will help your situation. It seems a dilemma that can not be solved.
JB.
Last edited by Johnboy on Sat May 21, 2016 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Ricard with an H
- KG Regular
- Posts: 2145
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:16 am
- Location: North Pembrokeshire. West Wales.
Oh-yes, oh-yes, I'm well aware of this ridiculous situation. It only came to the light of day during that winter we had heavy rains three years ago. (I think)
The foul waste was backing up towards the barn so I had the tank emptied, the next day it was full again. We used a chemical toilet in our motorhome during this period, I bought a petrol engined pump and pumped the rain water out. When the tank was empty I could see it filling from the bottom. It also filled from the top so within six hours it was full again.
I asked around amongst the local farmers and builders about this situation and it became clear that when a drainage field for a septic tank became difficult and expensive bashing holes in the bottom is normal around these parts, we are in a farming area with no habitation immediately below us. In fact below us in the valley is a lake and underground waterways running in and out of the valley.
I'm sure I could be forced to replace this tank but I don't have the legal funds to force those who did this to pay for the work even though the local authority would fund their legal costs, it's an example of how unfair the legal system has got. Years ago I could have claimed legal aid and would have got it.
Another point, holes in the bottom of the tank are not seen and only caused a problem once in sixteen years. Where do I start ?
The foul waste was backing up towards the barn so I had the tank emptied, the next day it was full again. We used a chemical toilet in our motorhome during this period, I bought a petrol engined pump and pumped the rain water out. When the tank was empty I could see it filling from the bottom. It also filled from the top so within six hours it was full again.
I asked around amongst the local farmers and builders about this situation and it became clear that when a drainage field for a septic tank became difficult and expensive bashing holes in the bottom is normal around these parts, we are in a farming area with no habitation immediately below us. In fact below us in the valley is a lake and underground waterways running in and out of the valley.
I'm sure I could be forced to replace this tank but I don't have the legal funds to force those who did this to pay for the work even though the local authority would fund their legal costs, it's an example of how unfair the legal system has got. Years ago I could have claimed legal aid and would have got it.
Another point, holes in the bottom of the tank are not seen and only caused a problem once in sixteen years. Where do I start ?
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
is the offending tank a fiberglass onion shaped thing? not that it really matters cos in reallity youre going to ignore the holy bottom and plead ignorance if officialdom notices,... perhaps if it was pumped out in dry weather it would be possible to patch it from the inside either with fibreglass or a dollop of concrete,... but that would perhaps give rise to more annoying problems due to the inadequat drainage field that started the whole trouble. perhaps improving the drainage outfall and sealing the tank without officialdom getting involved would be cheapest in the long term. cos if they decide your leaky tank is causing pollution theyll probab;y demand an expensive solution.
-
- KG Regular
- Posts: 2808
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:22 pm
- Location: st.helens
- Has thanked: 9 times
- Been thanked: 56 times
I think I would put it right regardless of who or what parties gets involved ,something like a leaking septic tank can and will cause all types of diseases , it seems a stupid way of working to punch holes in something that is supposed to be sealed it's a cowboys trick
- Geoff
- KG Regular
- Posts: 5575
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:33 pm
- Location: Forest of Bowland
- Been thanked: 129 times
Perhaps I need to go back and read more carefully as I don't understand how you have got to this state.
It is, as others have said, nonsense to punch holes in what I assume is a bottle type septic tank and I would follow the advice to seal it up sometime during the Summer months. But why has this been done? Was it filling up during wet periods before it was punctured? If so how was the water getting in? I can only think of three ways:
- surface water is getting in through the manhole; it shouldn't, if so seal it up
- surface or roof water is being routed into the tank; this is an absolute no no and will ruin the action of the tank, if so make other arrangements for taking rain water away
- it is back filling by surface water going in via the soakaway outlet; seems unlikely
Or have I got this wrong and you are saying it simply fills during wet weather because the waste that rightly goes into it cannot get away? In this case you need an increased soakaway area or a way of draining the soakaway, is the punching madness to try and create a deeper soakaway? You could look at the possibilities of reducing the load on the tank by having a grey water soakaway so lessening the chances of foul material bubbling up somewhere.
We have a ten man bottle that is way over capacity (we thought of doing bed and breakfast when we started the project) that soaks away via a level pipe in sloping ground but, like one of the posts above, at the end of the level section a drain leads to a culvert that runs under my land so if there is an excess it goes to the river.
It is, as others have said, nonsense to punch holes in what I assume is a bottle type septic tank and I would follow the advice to seal it up sometime during the Summer months. But why has this been done? Was it filling up during wet periods before it was punctured? If so how was the water getting in? I can only think of three ways:
- surface water is getting in through the manhole; it shouldn't, if so seal it up
- surface or roof water is being routed into the tank; this is an absolute no no and will ruin the action of the tank, if so make other arrangements for taking rain water away
- it is back filling by surface water going in via the soakaway outlet; seems unlikely
Or have I got this wrong and you are saying it simply fills during wet weather because the waste that rightly goes into it cannot get away? In this case you need an increased soakaway area or a way of draining the soakaway, is the punching madness to try and create a deeper soakaway? You could look at the possibilities of reducing the load on the tank by having a grey water soakaway so lessening the chances of foul material bubbling up somewhere.
We have a ten man bottle that is way over capacity (we thought of doing bed and breakfast when we started the project) that soaks away via a level pipe in sloping ground but, like one of the posts above, at the end of the level section a drain leads to a culvert that runs under my land so if there is an excess it goes to the river.
- Ricard with an H
- KG Regular
- Posts: 2145
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:16 am
- Location: North Pembrokeshire. West Wales.
You -all have got a point and Geoff, you haven't missed anything. The only point you and others may have missed is that this only came to the light of day that year when the 'Levels' flooded. We even had the sea wash a bus up over the road that runs along Newgale beach.
That's was an event where the water table rose so high that the well water at the farmhouse was within a foot of the lid, they don't use the well and even if they did it's not below us.
Yes, it's an onion nod I now have it emptied annually rather than every time it looks full. It will look full when the water table is high.
The holes in the bottom that were purposely made is a guess, after asking around it appeared that some builders and farmers who install or replace these onions regularly bash holes in the bottom if they consider the local geology to be suitable.
In my case I think the drainage field was compromised because the installer didn't want to dig the farm track up that passes within fifty yards-ish. It is possible my drainage field lays under the adjacent barns lawn and it may be possible, though not probable if the inspector did his job that the onion settled and fractured the bottom. Isn't that what the installer would say if I accused them.
Ordinarily, bashing holes in the bottom though sneaky and daft would work because the land slopes down away from us into the swampy area know as "Collects". The water table during most winters is probably over six feet below the tank bottom.
And back to those holes in the bottom, it's an assumption based on when I had emptied the tank I could hear water entering and in less than a day the tank was full again. And not from the top.
Most of the farms around here have very old stone built septic tanks that have either become leaky or were built to be leaky and whilst they were all built to dissipate water from the top into ditches or pipes whilst retaining solids most never need emptying. I went round all the local farms asking, they all say the same. They never need empty their septic tanks because they leak through the walls.
It's because of this that the more modern onion that replaces these old pits is treated the same, maybe in the villages it's different.
I can't afford to pay to have this tank replaced, there are four properties below me that never have to empty their septic tanks, or chess pits. I don't know the difference.
Another point that may surprise you is that when our tanks are emptied the contents go into a slurry lagoon that has had recent planning approval. Those contents along with cow poo were spread over the nearby fields recently. The smell was horrible, worse than the normal slurry smell.
That's was an event where the water table rose so high that the well water at the farmhouse was within a foot of the lid, they don't use the well and even if they did it's not below us.
Yes, it's an onion nod I now have it emptied annually rather than every time it looks full. It will look full when the water table is high.
The holes in the bottom that were purposely made is a guess, after asking around it appeared that some builders and farmers who install or replace these onions regularly bash holes in the bottom if they consider the local geology to be suitable.
In my case I think the drainage field was compromised because the installer didn't want to dig the farm track up that passes within fifty yards-ish. It is possible my drainage field lays under the adjacent barns lawn and it may be possible, though not probable if the inspector did his job that the onion settled and fractured the bottom. Isn't that what the installer would say if I accused them.
Ordinarily, bashing holes in the bottom though sneaky and daft would work because the land slopes down away from us into the swampy area know as "Collects". The water table during most winters is probably over six feet below the tank bottom.
And back to those holes in the bottom, it's an assumption based on when I had emptied the tank I could hear water entering and in less than a day the tank was full again. And not from the top.
Most of the farms around here have very old stone built septic tanks that have either become leaky or were built to be leaky and whilst they were all built to dissipate water from the top into ditches or pipes whilst retaining solids most never need emptying. I went round all the local farms asking, they all say the same. They never need empty their septic tanks because they leak through the walls.
It's because of this that the more modern onion that replaces these old pits is treated the same, maybe in the villages it's different.
I can't afford to pay to have this tank replaced, there are four properties below me that never have to empty their septic tanks, or chess pits. I don't know the difference.
Another point that may surprise you is that when our tanks are emptied the contents go into a slurry lagoon that has had recent planning approval. Those contents along with cow poo were spread over the nearby fields recently. The smell was horrible, worse than the normal slurry smell.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.