school holidays

[richard p]

sorry this has nothing directly to do with gardening. our primary school has decided it doesn't like pupils going on holiday during term time, and is threatening us with fines of upto a thousand pounds and reporting us to a social worker. somerset county council have stated in writing that pupils with otherwise good attendance records can have upto 10 days authorised absence, provided parents have a good reason for not being able to go in school holidays. our head is refusing any authorisation on the grounds that we will actually be away for eleven school days ( a standard 14 night holiday). the school website still says they cannot authorise absences and will be taking action after 5 days unauthorised absence, though the head has addmited that he could authorise a ten school day absence. What is the position in other counties, has anyone else had this rigid "no holiday policy" introduced.

[peterf]

hi richard,had the same problem september gone.im a shepherd so holidays are few and far between,ive always had a dream to visit cornwall and the eden project(for the first time ever).in august this year we managed to get a relief shepherd to cover me so i could have 10 days hoiday with my wife and 2 young children.this is the first time in there young lives that this had been made possible by my employers.we tried to book a train for during the holidays with gner the cost for 4 adults 2 kids (durham to truro)£560.00 that was with numerous changes and a totall journey time of 10.30hrs.then we discovered bmi baby were flying from teeside. the week after the summer holidays,4 adults 2 kids £240.00 return.i managed to change the timing of my holidays once i learned that the caravan site we were going to dropped there price of £911.00 for the week to £270.00 for the week after the kids went back to school.i was informed by the school that because our kids had good attendance records it would be allowed this once but not again.mmm i tell you what we will be going back next year i dont care what they say.there is more truancy around here,but it seems like they try to pick on the parents who really care for their kids,after all with the long hours i work nobody is going to stop me having a holiday with my family.merry christmas everyone peterf.

[Deb P]

Here in Derbyshire they have had this policy for some time. Parents are told that no holiday at all with be authorised in term time, and pupils risk losing their places if they do, which is quite a threat for the more popular always oversubscibed schools. I also think it has to do with the figures schools now have to give for abscences, all schools want to have low 'unauthorised' percentages.

[nog]

It's odd the schools can close at a moments notice and demand that you turnup to collect your childern , or add 10 inset days a year but you cant take them out. I would just phone them in sick...and let them argure the toss.

[Chez]

Goodness, this must be a cultural thing. I am from NZ and apart from the real truancy issues, it is rare for parents to even contemplate taking their children out of school in term time, so no need for legislation. The only time my parents ever allowed me off school (apart from illness), was to attend a funeral for a close relative. Only once, as I recall. Despite my pleadings for holidays in term time, I was always told 'No, you've got school to go to' - the top priority was schooling and everything was worked around it, not the other way around. Holidays were taken when school was out and they were tailored to our budget. All part of the ethos of 'work first, play later', I suppose.

[Molly]

Chez, I agree that it must be a cultural thing. The whole attitude to kids, holidays and schooling in general seems to have changed radically in the UK since I was a kid (existing at the low end of the income scale). Nowadays, encouraging kids to consume as much "stuff" as possible seems to be the norm (toys, clothes, possessions, travel, blah blah). Back then (as far as my ravaged brain cells recall) parents had different priorities - depriving their kids of two weeks' education was thought to be much more damaging to their development than depriving them of a cheap holiday in term time! It could quite truthfully be argued that travel and hotel rates are cheaper in term time, but that is a situation which schools can't be blamed for, for once! Having said that, I disagree with the practice of penalising parents for booking term-time holidays. If they want to deprive their kids of 2 weeks' education then fine, it's still a free country (just).

[Chez]

Hello Molly - fair points you make. However, it is not a free country. The law is parents must ensure children attend school. I do have issues with nannying of the population generally though - just surpised that schools even feel they must take this stance and that parents would want to take their children out of school. How can a parent who removes their child from school for a holiday, subesquently reprimand their child for truancy (if required) once they have undermined themselves by legitimising it?

Further, I wonder how parents would react if teachers (who also have children and are unable to take term time holidays) decided to take a day or two here and there for a holiday in term time? I already know the answer to that one. Assuming 'out of term' holidays are cheaper and there was no legislation on children be taken out of school, it could also mean a new holiday peak at certain times of the term, when class sizes would fall with parents all vying for holidays at this cheapest time of the year(?), which would soon become the second most expensive time to go outside of official school holidays.

And further, if children grow up thinking they can have holidays whenever convenient, the workplace will be shock - many roles only allow holidays at specified times of the year.

Having said all that, I know it is only two weeks. Just believe it is the thin end of the wedge, that's all.

[peat]

We should get back to the days when the only time leisure and pleasure only came before work was in the dictionary. I see it around these days in different work places young workers all think that they can take time off work whenever they please. Those that have played with games consoles think that cheating is legitimate as there are numerous places they learn the cheats toplay the game and think its ok in life.
Pete

[nog]

Come on lets get down to the Nittie Gritty. Most of the day at school of spent hanging around waiting. What did they teach you at school that took 11 years to learn and was any use once you got a job. Once you can read, write, add, subtract, devide, multiply and work out % you are done. When I look for staff I bin anyone with a degree or who went to college. They think they know it all and find the job they have taken to be under them. Life is where you do the learning. Take the kids to the Eden and they will learn more than they will in a classroom.

[mazmezroz]

I know I'm on dodgy ground, but as a teacher, let me give the other side of the story. We have dozens, no hundreds of different targets to meet, assessments to do, topics that MUST be covered and be proved to be covered. I could continue to list ad infinitum. If everyone has the right to take their child out of school whenever they want to, this would render all attempts at a fair broad and balanced education impossible. It is very tricky indeed for the child, let alone anyone else, coming back to school and discovering that a whole topic has been and gone, and the next stage started. Then who gets the blame for the fall in standards????

Speaking as a teacher who has to always holiday during peak season and can't afford to, and even if I could don't fancy sharing my holiday time with the very little darlings I am trying to get away from (I have been blobbing happily and wobbily in my swimsuit in Cornwall to be greeted by little Jonny from Class 3), I am sorry but cost must never be the reason. I understand that some jobs make it difficult - some of the children in my school are the offspring of publicans, and they are told when to have their holidays. Even so, the knock on effect for the children can be very damaging.

*Sigh* I hate sounding off about this, but as a mum and a teacher, I think it is unacceptable to take any time off unless totally, and I mean totally, unavoidable.

[lizzie]

Hi All

We have had this policy here for a number of years now. I've never taken my children out of school for holidays ever. My daughter was off school as she is doing mock GCSE's and the looks she got was terrible because people thought she was playing truant. My kids both have 100% attendence records for almost their entire school lives (apart from chickenpox and a stay in hospital.)

I think the travel firms have a lot to answer for as it can be very expensive to take the family away on holiday. I think they just put the prices up to make more money. If there was some law or legislation about the companies ripping parents off then this problem would eradicate itself.

Just my thoughts. What do other people think.

[Jenny Green]

Well, both of my older boys go to a school that's so hard to get into (and based on the luck of the draw rather than selection) that I would never DARE take them out during term time. It was made very clear to us when they registered there that this was comepletely unacceptable. And to be honest it's such a fantastic school that I would never do anything to undermine the work they do. But then they have funny term times and are actually often on holiday when the rest of the country isn't (and they get funny looks in town too!). Unfortunately, I can't take my holidays when they have theirs so we're very restricted.
I think they have the 10 days permitted absence here too. But if my boys were at an ordinary school I would only ever use this if there was an opportunity for a really extraordinary holiday, not to go elcheapo to the Costa del Sol or something.

[mikeV]

I can see both sides of the question, as a teacher at an independent school and a governor at a state primary. The independent head understands the way the farming year doesn't dovetail with the school year and gives permission for holidays to be taken when the request is reasonable. A state school where unauthorised absence is an issue is in a different position and is anxious not to fall into the "red", or unsatisfactory, performance rating over absence. The legal position is that parents are entitled to request 10 days absence for Richard's type of reason, but, crucially, only to "request". Discretion is left to the Head and Governors. The best tactic for Richard and Peter to adopt is to attempt to demonstrate how reasonable their request is, in which case the absence would be authorised. Families from abroad are in a similar position over festivals, family occasions etc.

mike

[Guest]

Can I add to this discussion my viewpoint as an experienced teacher at an extremely good primary school.Some Head teachers in previous contributions to this thread seem to be draconian in a way in which our Head would not be. We are very well subscribed and yet our Head does not take this very rigid line with parents.I think the situation is 10 days legally taken, after which absences are not authorised. So they are unauthorised. It is the LEA who then takes the parent to court for excessive absences. I doubt if any LEA is going to go to that expense unless the absence percentage drops very low. Looking on as a teacher, it is the children who ultimately suffer. If they come into the autumn term late or go off soon after, they have trouble fitting into the class for a long time. The friendship patterns have all been established. The class routines with a new teacher are all running and secure but they aren't familiar with them. They were not part of the setting of class rules. It can have far reaching effects on the happiness of the child at school during that term.Maths is a very difficult area because it is built up gradually, building block on building block, and absentee children miss some of the essential building blocks, which affects long term their understanding.This can then damage their esteem, which can lead to a reluctance to come to school.Education is not just learning this and that but a gradual absorption of skills and knowledge as maturity allows. A previous contributor had no understanding of this process and put forward a very simplistic view of education. Not only am I a teacher, but I have brought up 5 children ( not at the same time), and seen them go through to university and grow up as responsible citizens. Schooling is not something that just happens to children. It is a joint responsiblity of parent and teacher working together for the good of the child. Threats by headteachers and rebellious mutterings by parents don't seem to me to be harmonious working together and therefore neither are for the good of the child.

[jane E]

Sorry that was me just above. I thought I was logged in. I wouldn't state a forthright view like that without a signature.