Economy of scale

[Johnboy]

Can we put this sorry thread to bed thus:-
This concerns the difference in ground areas between two different forms using the same material. If you take eight pieces of timber cut into equal lengths (dimensions to suit yourself) and first produce a square form and note the ground area and then using the same material make an octagonal form and note the ground area. Then making a comparison you will note that although the perimeters are the same and the octagon has the larger ground area.
To apply either structure to make anything meaningful a third dimension is needed to give volume. The difference in the volumes of the two forms is proportionate to the difference in ground area.
Now this may be a fact but is it logical?
A square structure for a compost box is decidedly easier to make and erect than an octagon. The square can easily be increased in size whereas an octagonal compost box, which is decidedly more difficult to make and erect and to make larger it will take eight pieces of timber to do so. So to make an octagonal compost box as a viable structure is very open to question. My personal thought is that it is both illogical and impractical.
The use of the word scale is a misnomer in this exercise.
I am indebted Mr. Potato Head for his timely diagrams, which allowed a thinly disguised Allan to actually explain what he meant in the first place.

[richard p]

ive watched this post from the begining and just reread it all. forget octagons they were only introduced in the middle (and are approaching the circle which gives the largest area for a given circumferance (length of walling)). Allans origional post was quite correct mathematically. To make 4 of 1 metre square bins you need 16 metres of walling (4 bins each of 4 walls each 1 metre long) to make 1 of 4 metre square bin only requires 8 metres of walling (4 walls each 2 metres long) what he said not only applies to compost bins but as he also said to putting slug pellets arround the periphery of a bed rather than round each individual plant, though this only works if there are no slugs hiding in the bed. Also applies to rabbit fencing, less fence is required to go round the outside of the veg patch than to fence each individual bed.

[Johnboy]

Hi Richard,
Quote.
"Four of these will make an enclosure of size 1x1+ 1 square metre. Now the next season you
want to enlarge so you get another 4 panels and make a second bin, also 1 square metre. Then you
start to think, suppose I put the two sets together, how big is the bin, the answer is 2x2=4 square metres, that is twice as much. you can go on enlarhing, a third set gives you3x3=9 square metres."

1x1=1 PLUS 1x1=1 therfore 1+1=2 NOT 4
1x1=1 plus 1x1=1 plus 1x1=1 therefore 1+1+1 = 3 NOT 9
So the mathmatics is NOT correct!
Stone walling is worked out by Volume not square measurement you have to work out the width of the wall. This adds the third dimension which will give you cubic measurenent.
When fencing the material comes 'in the roll' and that dimension is of fixed height and I feel nobody reading this could confuse it as anything else.
Admittedly volume doesn't come into fencing.
I think this whole thread has been an exercise in teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. Totally futile!!
I do not propose to enter into any more correspondence on this thread.

[Guest]

I have read all the replies and don't retract anything I have said. However I have some comments to make.
First, Johnboy, I am sorry to say it but you are still talking rubbish as your sums are correct but they just don't have any relevance.
I was trying to demonstrate a sound mathematical principle. I tried to put it in 'practical' terms in the hope that it would help understanding but for some people it seems to have acted otherwise.. The idea of applying it to the sort of compost bin that is based on fixed corner posts is an irrelevance that I overlooked. My bins are all wire panels tied together at the sides and thetre is no difficulty in applying the principle there, but you could equally well be using a roll of wire netting in which case the volume goes up in proportion to the square of the length of wire used, assuming an infinite number of posts or none. clearly a few posts would reduce the retained volume but give more stability.
With that I agree it's time to close this topic.
Allan

[Jackie]

Allan said: I agree it's time to close this topic

Could I remind the honourable gentleman that it's not up to him to decide when a topic should be closed. The most he can do is refrain from posting anything further (which would give us all a sigh of relief, as he's patently no great sums expert anyway). Pardon the rant, folks, but it sicks me up when somebody tries to put the lid on any discussion just because he personally doesn't like the way it's going.

[Allan]

Thanks, Jackie.
R.I.P.

[richard p]

johnboy, where did stone walling and fencing on the roll come from?. will you humour me and get 24 matchsticks , a sheet of paper and a pair of scissors. lay 12 matchsticks on the table to make three separate squares each with four sides one matchstick long. cut three squares of paper to fit inside the matchstick squares. use one of the paper squares to cut nine more the same size. lay the other 12 matchsticks in a square with 4 sides each 3 matchsticks long. you will find the nine squares of paper will fit inside this big square. thus the big square has three times the area of the three little ones, with the same number of matches used arround the edges.

[Jenny Green]

FFS!!!

[Allan]

What's this FFS?
I put it into Google and got
Feee For Service
Feet Forward motorcycles
Facial Feminisation Surgery
Find First Set bit (maths)
Feeder Fan Site (pop music)
Fit For Struggle
and lots more

Try it yourself. If you can find the right one you're a better man than me Gunga Din!

[Jenny Green]

In the interests of not furthering this thread I won't answer that.
Whoops!

[Tigger]

It's none of those... For F**ks Sake is FFS.

M.

[Mr Potato Head]

Everybody stay calm, and step away from their calculators...

It's becoming obvious that theoretical mathmatics doesn't necessarily apply neatly to practical gardening skills. Here are some guidelines for continuing this (or any) discussion.

1) Volume is not (sorry folks) just a simple extrusion of the area through a third dimension - you only have to see my wonky compost bin to prove that... (it's dangerously wider at the top than the bottom... HOWEVER - if you assume your posts are hammered in at a neat 90 degrees to the ground, then you CAN use a simple area calculation.

2) There's only one person who can stop a discussion, and that's me. So please keep the talk civilised, and although I'm not going to jump on anyone for 'bad' words, I will shut down any discussion that descends into simple abuse.

3) If you want to express your exasperation, try using the emoticons on the left... with these you can be embarrased or angry or confused or even roll your eyes - I know they're cheesy, but it does mean that you don't offend people with bad language.

4) Please, no Trolling. This is the art of placing a deliberately obnoxious or provoking post with the intent of making people angry (Or use naughty words in their posting).

Apart from #1, these are guidelines rather than rules. I'm a pretty easy-going person, so I'll play moderation by ear. This is your community, and it's up to you all to keep it clean and to the point.

[Mr Potato Head]

3 square metres is not the same as 3 metres squared! Honestly, i never thought I'd have to bring out my GCSE maths knowledge...

[Jenny Green]

It's none of those... For F**ks Sake is FFS.

M.

Mmmm. I think Allen knew that.

Sorry Mr Potato Head (strange Darth Vader creature person). Next time I'll or

[Allan]

Of course, I wasn't born yesterday but I take a pride in keeping up standards of decency, and I DO have a sense of humour.
Enjoy your Christmas, especially if you can get some decent sprouts on a stick from a farm shop, they are strongly anti-cancer.
Allan