Can anyone advise a common sense approach to using the same piece of ground for more than one crop in a year?
I've just finished some cabbages and need to plant out some Cavolo Nero Kale. The spare space would be a handy place to use, but this would mean following brassicas with more brassicas.
In addition, there is clubroot on the plot, though my plants aren't usually affected as I start them in pots then plant out when 6-8" high.
Is it best to:
a) Keep one family in one piece of ground for a whole year, then rotate to a different patch the following year
even if that means using it for the same family several times that year, or
b) Rotate to new ground for each new sowing of a family,
but meaning that by the end of the year I'll have grown Brassicas on 50% of the ground available in my plot?
Logically, it seems like the first one makes more sense, but I just wanted to check where things like clubroot or other problems were involved.
Rotation & Multiple crops in one year
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter
Hi Colin,
This is the 64,000 Dollar question. In my case I do not have club root on site, thankfully, but I still wouldn't follow Brassica with Brassica but then I don't have a space problem. Could you grow the next crop in quite large pots placed on the bed that housed the previous crop? Just at present that is all I can come up with. The top half of the local village has club root and some people import soil from this end and grow Brassicas in pots and actually they do quite well. Even Brussels Sprouts grow well just so long as the pots are held with steel hooks very like very long tent pegs. These hook over the lip of the pot and the downturned bit is bedded in wood that is on the soil in the pot.
The sprout plants are also staked.
JB.
This is the 64,000 Dollar question. In my case I do not have club root on site, thankfully, but I still wouldn't follow Brassica with Brassica but then I don't have a space problem. Could you grow the next crop in quite large pots placed on the bed that housed the previous crop? Just at present that is all I can come up with. The top half of the local village has club root and some people import soil from this end and grow Brassicas in pots and actually they do quite well. Even Brussels Sprouts grow well just so long as the pots are held with steel hooks very like very long tent pegs. These hook over the lip of the pot and the downturned bit is bedded in wood that is on the soil in the pot.
The sprout plants are also staked.
JB.
-
Colin_M
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:13 am
- Location: Bristol
- Been thanked: 1 time
Thanks for the suggestion JB. Can I check the thinking:
- Plant in pots (rather than in the actual ground) to minimise the effect of clubroot getting to the roots
- Place the pots on the ground, presumably so that the roots can eventually go into the ground (otherwise I might as well leave the pots in my back garden or on paths by the allotment).
Finally, can I ask what your answer would be if clubroot wasn't a problem and we were just talking about how quickly rotation should apply within any given 12 month period?
Thanks in anticipation!!
- Plant in pots (rather than in the actual ground) to minimise the effect of clubroot getting to the roots
- Place the pots on the ground, presumably so that the roots can eventually go into the ground (otherwise I might as well leave the pots in my back garden or on paths by the allotment).
Finally, can I ask what your answer would be if clubroot wasn't a problem and we were just talking about how quickly rotation should apply within any given 12 month period?
Thanks in anticipation!!
Hi Colin,
I meant that you should use the ground space that grew the previous Brassicas.
I know some people treat a further planting within the 12 month period as within the time scope but I think that the ruling doesn't mean time only a single crop should be planted in any one season and then rotated.
Faced with your space dilemma I am not quite sure what I would do here.
I have the luxury of too much space, which incidentally becomes quite a nightmare after a time, but I would not plant Brassica crop after Brassica within the same season here.
JB.
I meant that you should use the ground space that grew the previous Brassicas.
I know some people treat a further planting within the 12 month period as within the time scope but I think that the ruling doesn't mean time only a single crop should be planted in any one season and then rotated.
Faced with your space dilemma I am not quite sure what I would do here.
I have the luxury of too much space, which incidentally becomes quite a nightmare after a time, but I would not plant Brassica crop after Brassica within the same season here.
JB.
Colin I face the same problem. I have 4 beds for brassicas but for an extended crop have to plant my winter cauliflowers into a bed previously used for spring greens.
I sow in root trainers and plant out when a good size, I plant out in a hole but back fill with potting compost (saved from last years greenhouse toms ) not much nutrient but free from clubroot.
To recap - spring greens follow my broad beans in the bed. Next season, having harvested the spring greens, I catch a few lettuce and plant winter cauliflowers. It is a risk but I cannot afford 5 beds for brassicas without using the ground for other items and then it gets too complicated for my rotation planning.
Ps I don't stamp them in either, just a firm hand press around the roots.
I sow in root trainers and plant out when a good size, I plant out in a hole but back fill with potting compost (saved from last years greenhouse toms ) not much nutrient but free from clubroot.
To recap - spring greens follow my broad beans in the bed. Next season, having harvested the spring greens, I catch a few lettuce and plant winter cauliflowers. It is a risk but I cannot afford 5 beds for brassicas without using the ground for other items and then it gets too complicated for my rotation planning.
Ps I don't stamp them in either, just a firm hand press around the roots.
WigBag
-
Colin_M
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:13 am
- Location: Bristol
- Been thanked: 1 time
Thank you to both of you for your comments.
On the one hand, the club root on our allotment has never bothered any of my plants since I started getting them well established before planting out. We've had a superb crop of cabbages & broccoli so far this year (more than we could eat) and our caulis & swedes also seem to be going great guns (eg see here).
However I've worked with JB long enough to know there's a reason for all advice and it might be pushing my luck to replant all my brassicas into the same beds! I'm therefore going to experiment with some Cavolo Nero cuttings (taken from my Winter crop that have been getting established in pots) into the existing bed. I'll plant out my main set of new Cavolo Nero seedlings elsewhere (possibly where spuds have been).
On the one hand, the club root on our allotment has never bothered any of my plants since I started getting them well established before planting out. We've had a superb crop of cabbages & broccoli so far this year (more than we could eat) and our caulis & swedes also seem to be going great guns (eg see here).
However I've worked with JB long enough to know there's a reason for all advice and it might be pushing my luck to replant all my brassicas into the same beds! I'm therefore going to experiment with some Cavolo Nero cuttings (taken from my Winter crop that have been getting established in pots) into the existing bed. I'll plant out my main set of new Cavolo Nero seedlings elsewhere (possibly where spuds have been).
JB, I am in my 8th season with my lottie. When I took it over I threw in some cabbages as I pondered how to make a start on an overgrown 'fallow' plot and they developed club root.
Since then I have created 30 beds, 6 perennial and 24 for rotation and practise an hygenic approach as possible to not to cross contaminate between beds. So far so good, no sign of club root - I don' know wether the original club root was a small contamination or if my 6 year cycle and hygienne efforts are preventers.
If it does show in a bed I will mark my chart and miss the bed out on future brassica cycles.
Since then I have created 30 beds, 6 perennial and 24 for rotation and practise an hygenic approach as possible to not to cross contaminate between beds. So far so good, no sign of club root - I don' know wether the original club root was a small contamination or if my 6 year cycle and hygienne efforts are preventers.
If it does show in a bed I will mark my chart and miss the bed out on future brassica cycles.
WigBag
Hi Colin and WigBag,
Club root must be very difficult to work around and you both have my sympathy.
I am glad to say that, due to using a strict liming regime and growing in pots, the the top end of the village is gradually overcoming the club root.
Strict hygiene is absolutely vital. We have a natural PH of 7 in this area so what we have been doing is to over lime, then till, and leave fallow but put the pots on the fallow land. It has taken around 10 seasons to get so far. Prior to the over limed beds being used they are all treated with Pig Manure which is considerably more acidic than FYM and is put on in the form of a slurry. This returns or nearly return the PH to 7. Last year one of my friends tried to grow direct and she did as Colin does and grew the plants in 1.5L pots prior to planting out and she had no sign of club root. I would suggest that so long as the hygiene regime is adhered to ultimately the club root will die a death.
JB.
Club root must be very difficult to work around and you both have my sympathy.
I am glad to say that, due to using a strict liming regime and growing in pots, the the top end of the village is gradually overcoming the club root.
Strict hygiene is absolutely vital. We have a natural PH of 7 in this area so what we have been doing is to over lime, then till, and leave fallow but put the pots on the fallow land. It has taken around 10 seasons to get so far. Prior to the over limed beds being used they are all treated with Pig Manure which is considerably more acidic than FYM and is put on in the form of a slurry. This returns or nearly return the PH to 7. Last year one of my friends tried to grow direct and she did as Colin does and grew the plants in 1.5L pots prior to planting out and she had no sign of club root. I would suggest that so long as the hygiene regime is adhered to ultimately the club root will die a death.
JB.
-
sally wright
- KG Regular
- Posts: 722
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:32 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Dear Colin,
liberal applications of lime are helpful in reducing the virulence of club root.
I have 2 rotations on the go. In my big plots I do a four crop rotation over 3 years. Potatoes go in in March. As they are dug leeks go in after the first earlies, garlic after the 2nd earlies (in Sept) and the overwintering shallots and onions go in later October after the main crops. The remaining space is left and is planted with spring planting onions the following March. Trying to make sure the over wintering onions and shallots are as far away from the spring sown ones to avoid the downy mildew problem. Ditto the leeks and garlic to avoid leek rust. As the overwintering alliums are lifted I put up my brassica cages and plant brussels sprouts first followed by sprouting broccoli. Any gaps in the cages are filled with black kale, savoys turnips and spring greens. As these come out in the following spring I take the opportunity to topdress with vast quantities of leafmould and compost. Into this I plant my squashes using around 10 different varieties. If the plot has been very weedy I will use weed suppressing mulch, but not always. Come the Autumn I will dig over the whole area incorporating the mulch and leave it until March when the potatoes go in again.
The other rotation involves the smaller quantities of veg that I grow and is not nearly so well thought out. Generally it means that I try not to plant anything in the same place for at least 3 years.
Regards Sally Wright.
liberal applications of lime are helpful in reducing the virulence of club root.
I have 2 rotations on the go. In my big plots I do a four crop rotation over 3 years. Potatoes go in in March. As they are dug leeks go in after the first earlies, garlic after the 2nd earlies (in Sept) and the overwintering shallots and onions go in later October after the main crops. The remaining space is left and is planted with spring planting onions the following March. Trying to make sure the over wintering onions and shallots are as far away from the spring sown ones to avoid the downy mildew problem. Ditto the leeks and garlic to avoid leek rust. As the overwintering alliums are lifted I put up my brassica cages and plant brussels sprouts first followed by sprouting broccoli. Any gaps in the cages are filled with black kale, savoys turnips and spring greens. As these come out in the following spring I take the opportunity to topdress with vast quantities of leafmould and compost. Into this I plant my squashes using around 10 different varieties. If the plot has been very weedy I will use weed suppressing mulch, but not always. Come the Autumn I will dig over the whole area incorporating the mulch and leave it until March when the potatoes go in again.
The other rotation involves the smaller quantities of veg that I grow and is not nearly so well thought out. Generally it means that I try not to plant anything in the same place for at least 3 years.
Regards Sally Wright.
-
Colin_M
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:13 am
- Location: Bristol
- Been thanked: 1 time
Hi Sally, that all sounds like a well worked-out approach. There are a couple of additional factors:
a) Size - I have "half" an allotment plot and have been making use of most of the space (hence the impatience, rather than leaving ground fallow or covered with green manures)
b) Time! I'd love the garden you describe, but know I couldn't do justice to this size plot
Yes, I start my brassicas in pots with a little lime mixed into the compost. When planting out, I line the hole with a good handful of lime.
Interesting. I got some sort of lurgie that spolit much of my alliums last year. It's back on several other allotment plots nearby again this year and I've just spotted it on the tips of some of my shallots.
Any advice on these? They don't looky fully ripe yet (skins not quite brown etc). I assume that if I leave them in the ground, they will get worse and be a bigger threat to other alliums. If I harvest and remove the affected stems, is there hope for the remaining bulbs, or is this usually terminal?
a) Size - I have "half" an allotment plot and have been making use of most of the space (hence the impatience, rather than leaving ground fallow or covered with green manures)
b) Time! I'd love the garden you describe, but know I couldn't do justice to this size plot
sally wright wrote:liberal applications of lime are helpful in reducing the virulence of club root.
Yes, I start my brassicas in pots with a little lime mixed into the compost. When planting out, I line the hole with a good handful of lime.
Trying to make sure the over wintering onions and shallots are as far away from the spring sown ones to avoid the downy mildew problem.
Interesting. I got some sort of lurgie that spolit much of my alliums last year. It's back on several other allotment plots nearby again this year and I've just spotted it on the tips of some of my shallots.
Any advice on these? They don't looky fully ripe yet (skins not quite brown etc). I assume that if I leave them in the ground, they will get worse and be a bigger threat to other alliums. If I harvest and remove the affected stems, is there hope for the remaining bulbs, or is this usually terminal?
-
sally wright
- KG Regular
- Posts: 722
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:32 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Dear Colin,
in my experience the downy mildew does not affect the bulbs to the point of rotting. What it does do is limit the size of the bulbs by reducing the leaf area of the plant. It attacks the overwintering onions first but because they are further along they still give a reasonable crop. However the spring planted onions are smaller and are less capable of overcoming the mildew and crop failure is a distinct possibility. Especially in humid years.
I have found that if the onion tops have fallen over and are they able to be pulled out of the ground with one hand then they will be OK to harvest. If you have a spare shelf in a greenhouse or a coldframe then lay them out in there to dry as the heat will hasten the ripening process. If they have to be laid outside to dry then I would suggest somewhere downwind of the spring sown onions.
Regards Sally Wright.
in my experience the downy mildew does not affect the bulbs to the point of rotting. What it does do is limit the size of the bulbs by reducing the leaf area of the plant. It attacks the overwintering onions first but because they are further along they still give a reasonable crop. However the spring planted onions are smaller and are less capable of overcoming the mildew and crop failure is a distinct possibility. Especially in humid years.
I have found that if the onion tops have fallen over and are they able to be pulled out of the ground with one hand then they will be OK to harvest. If you have a spare shelf in a greenhouse or a coldframe then lay them out in there to dry as the heat will hasten the ripening process. If they have to be laid outside to dry then I would suggest somewhere downwind of the spring sown onions.
Regards Sally Wright.