Organic
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Guest
For many years gardeners have used lime ,fish/b&b.Superphosphate,Sulphate of ammonia and potash believing they are replacing trace elements from the soil.Would the use of these still be oranic or is this classified as non organic.
One has to distinguiish between Organic as laid down by the Soil Association and now a legally applied term under which such substances would not have approval, and the general parlance of the gardener who has no such commitment as long as he or she is not offering it for sale to the general public.For instance some people use quantities of muck and thereby consider that qualifies them to call themselves organic gardeners.
My knowledge of the rules is that none of those substances other than possibly lime and the fish blood and bone would meet the Soil Association standards. The FBB generally on sale has been balanced in nutrients by use of non-approved potash and/or phosphate but I believe there is some SA approved FBB available.
All this doesn't mean that any of it is unsuitable for your average gardener but it seems to be accepted by most people using the word organic that one wouldn't be using the manufactured inorganic chemicals.
The rules in other countries, for example, USA, are different.
All this is in breach of the hitherto use of the terms organic and inorganic to say whether or not a compound contains any carbon-based compounds in its makeup.
My knowledge of the rules is that none of those substances other than possibly lime and the fish blood and bone would meet the Soil Association standards. The FBB generally on sale has been balanced in nutrients by use of non-approved potash and/or phosphate but I believe there is some SA approved FBB available.
All this doesn't mean that any of it is unsuitable for your average gardener but it seems to be accepted by most people using the word organic that one wouldn't be using the manufactured inorganic chemicals.
The rules in other countries, for example, USA, are different.
All this is in breach of the hitherto use of the terms organic and inorganic to say whether or not a compound contains any carbon-based compounds in its makeup.
For the average gardener a general rule of thumb is 'has the product been manufactured?'if it has then you might not want to use it on your veg patch.Of course products like fish,blood and bone are processed to make them easy to handle but they come from a recently alive source which is another good guide.I would avoid anything that smacks of the oil refinery but the important thing is to work the way you are happy with and don't beat yourself up if you are not entirely organic..it's not a religion!!
Carole
Carole
allan has brought up carbon moleculas again. just to make it clear. To a CHEMIST organic means a complex carbon based molecule, such as sugar, starch etc nothing what soever to do with the gardening and agricultural use of the term organic. organic in our sense means grown without artificial fertilisers or pesticides. the soil association (the organic police) have a set of strict rules and approved and banned substances. if you pay their fees and abide by their rules they will certify you as an organic producer. once certified you can legally lable your produce as organic and sell it as such. if you are not certified you cannot describe your produce as organic for sales purposes. hope this clarifies things.
Thank you Richard for explaining in simple terms my 'pea brain' can understand..
Very much appreciated.
Beryl.
Very much appreciated.
Beryl.
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Geoff
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Once again the debate between Realistic Organic and Legal Organic.
I believe the Legal Organic movement is doing a serious disservice to the health of the nation. We need a classification based on real safety rather than unproved theory. The objective should be food that is free of residues from pesticides, fungicides, herbicides and any other “cides” there might be. It doesn’t matter how the crop is fed or how it is bred as long as it is flavoursome and nutritious. If you used these criteria good food would be cheaper and would have a higher take up and hence a greater benefit to the national well being,
So feed your soil with any bulky organic material you can get hold of, feed your plants with the right balance of NPK as cheaply as you can and cut out the cides then you can enjoy fresh flavoursome food that will be healthy without needing the counter productive organic label.
I believe the Legal Organic movement is doing a serious disservice to the health of the nation. We need a classification based on real safety rather than unproved theory. The objective should be food that is free of residues from pesticides, fungicides, herbicides and any other “cides” there might be. It doesn’t matter how the crop is fed or how it is bred as long as it is flavoursome and nutritious. If you used these criteria good food would be cheaper and would have a higher take up and hence a greater benefit to the national well being,
So feed your soil with any bulky organic material you can get hold of, feed your plants with the right balance of NPK as cheaply as you can and cut out the cides then you can enjoy fresh flavoursome food that will be healthy without needing the counter productive organic label.
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sue-the-recycler
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The complexity of some of these posts reminds me why I find the 'organic' thing so scary 
I tell people who buy my surplus produce that I grow 'sustainably' That is I dont knowingly use chemicals but I have no idea whether the FY manure I use is full of residual antibiotics, GM feed or the chemical fertilisers used for grazing land. I do use FB&B, lime, manufactured potash but avoid manmade pesticides (except the odd slug pellet when I'm under seige from the buggers and the slug pubs are simply not coping with the rush to the bar!) I do think the 'legal' organic people are putting some people off trying to be more 'green' in the garden and I have met the occasional 'organic snob' who wont hear of anything other than a pureist approach to the subject and is quite dismissive of my casual attitude. Fact is I really dont care that much - my stuff grows, we eat well and I try to 'do the right thing' but it can be quite demoralising when folk tell me I'm not doing it right.
I tell people who buy my surplus produce that I grow 'sustainably' That is I dont knowingly use chemicals but I have no idea whether the FY manure I use is full of residual antibiotics, GM feed or the chemical fertilisers used for grazing land. I do use FB&B, lime, manufactured potash but avoid manmade pesticides (except the odd slug pellet when I'm under seige from the buggers and the slug pubs are simply not coping with the rush to the bar!) I do think the 'legal' organic people are putting some people off trying to be more 'green' in the garden and I have met the occasional 'organic snob' who wont hear of anything other than a pureist approach to the subject and is quite dismissive of my casual attitude. Fact is I really dont care that much - my stuff grows, we eat well and I try to 'do the right thing' but it can be quite demoralising when folk tell me I'm not doing it right.When we sell our produce for instance at a Farmers' Market the most commonly asked question is "are you organic?" (eveybody is organic as we are alive!)
they then change it to "Do you spray", the answer to that is that we do but it is almost always water and that isn't organic. To get to the root of the matter, we don't spray with pesticides as we don't need to. Nothing is grown in sufficient quantities and to a cosmetic standard that needs us to do it, the natural predators around generally keep things in balance.
It is a fact that the Organic people use some varieties that have a natural pest resistance which is because the plant makes the pesticide itself and in a quantity that resists the pests. Besides that there is now in the environment an unavoidable amount of pesticide residue which is present in all crops and as science has advanced so this level has become detectable. The level is monitored for all crops to ensure that it stays below a generous safety level so there is nothing to worry about. Far better to eat such produce than to go without the beneficial effects of a healthgiving diet of fresh fruit and vegetables and the more varied the better.
Allan
they then change it to "Do you spray", the answer to that is that we do but it is almost always water and that isn't organic. To get to the root of the matter, we don't spray with pesticides as we don't need to. Nothing is grown in sufficient quantities and to a cosmetic standard that needs us to do it, the natural predators around generally keep things in balance.
It is a fact that the Organic people use some varieties that have a natural pest resistance which is because the plant makes the pesticide itself and in a quantity that resists the pests. Besides that there is now in the environment an unavoidable amount of pesticide residue which is present in all crops and as science has advanced so this level has become detectable. The level is monitored for all crops to ensure that it stays below a generous safety level so there is nothing to worry about. Far better to eat such produce than to go without the beneficial effects of a healthgiving diet of fresh fruit and vegetables and the more varied the better.
Allan
Feed the soil,not the plant and then the plants will be able to take what they want from a wide 'a la carte' menu!. Healthy soil bacteria and varied planting = healthy plants(mostly!)Man-made fertilizers do nothing for the soil bacteria.
Carole.
Carole.
manmade fertilizers kill off the soil bacteria and worms. Organic is not just changing fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides from to artificial to organic. It is building up the soil with organic materials and the plants will take care of themselves.
Most gardeners don't realise the amount of greenhouse gases they release every time they dig the soil, whereas using organic material wiyh no till accumulates the carbon.
Happy New Year and good growing
Pete
Most gardeners don't realise the amount of greenhouse gases they release every time they dig the soil, whereas using organic material wiyh no till accumulates the carbon.
Happy New Year and good growing
Pete
skype me on pmrout
"To be a successful farmer, one must first know the NATURE of the SOIL" Xenophon , Oeconomicus 400 B.C.
"To be a successful farmer, one must first know the NATURE of the SOIL" Xenophon , Oeconomicus 400 B.C.
Hi Peat,
I didn't realise that 'artificials' actually killed off the soil microbes,what a worrying thought.Makes me glad I've gone over to no dig beds with whatever natural matter I can find layered on the surface or green manures for fertility.It is said that people's back gardens make the biggest nature reserve so perhaps we could have a bacteria reserve too!
Carole
I didn't realise that 'artificials' actually killed off the soil microbes,what a worrying thought.Makes me glad I've gone over to no dig beds with whatever natural matter I can find layered on the surface or green manures for fertility.It is said that people's back gardens make the biggest nature reserve so perhaps we could have a bacteria reserve too!
Carole
The points there are that the so-called artificials are in many cases chemically identical with the so-called organics when it comes to the ionic and molecular level which is all that plants can absorb. All this hype about artificials poisoning the soil is based on excessive and irregular feeding which doesn't necessarily occur. The other point is that any gardener who knows how to garden will use all the organic bulky material he can get whether he is labelled organic or not, this not necessarily as a source of nutrients but as a soil conditioner. Some, not all, organic gardeners can go to excess with FYM etc, to the detriment of the soil and the environment. What's the good of tackling a lack of potash, for example with more 'manure' if that too is potash deficient. The Aunt Sally of a good home gardener totally dependent on chemicals is a myth dreamed up by the organic lobby as far as I know.
If chemicals were all that bad how come that hydroponics is doing so well in the commercial salad field. Again, think of commercial watercress, that is totally dependent on the dissolved chemicals in the water and not, we hope, the slurry leaked into the watercourse.
If chemicals were all that bad how come that hydroponics is doing so well in the commercial salad field. Again, think of commercial watercress, that is totally dependent on the dissolved chemicals in the water and not, we hope, the slurry leaked into the watercourse.
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Geoff
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It is the season of tolerance and goodwill so I shouldn't resort to uncharateristic profanities but the reason Carole didn't realise fertiliser kills microbes and worms is because it is b******s!
Peter,
I believe that your letter is not correct and must be challenged.
Whereas it may well be true that if you use nothing but man made fertilizers over a prolonged period you may well destroy the structure of your soil and a breakdown of microbial action within that soil. With the absence of organic matter in the soil there would be a breakdown of microbial activity and because of lack of food the worms would simply desert that soil in search of food. It is therefore incorrect to blame man made fertilizers for this. MMF neither kills microbes or worms.
The use of MMF as a supplement in conjunction with your normal organic incorporation of organic matter will not cause the damage that you are suggesting. It could be said that the two used in conjunction can increase the fertility of your soil. This would be due to the trace elements in the MMF that pure organics would simply fail to provide.
Your letter is Organic Purism that has a habit of treating theory as fact. This is exactly
what you have done. So what you are saying is not actually true.
I believe that your letter is not correct and must be challenged.
Whereas it may well be true that if you use nothing but man made fertilizers over a prolonged period you may well destroy the structure of your soil and a breakdown of microbial action within that soil. With the absence of organic matter in the soil there would be a breakdown of microbial activity and because of lack of food the worms would simply desert that soil in search of food. It is therefore incorrect to blame man made fertilizers for this. MMF neither kills microbes or worms.
The use of MMF as a supplement in conjunction with your normal organic incorporation of organic matter will not cause the damage that you are suggesting. It could be said that the two used in conjunction can increase the fertility of your soil. This would be due to the trace elements in the MMF that pure organics would simply fail to provide.
Your letter is Organic Purism that has a habit of treating theory as fact. This is exactly
what you have done. So what you are saying is not actually true.
JB.
johnboy i find the comment that manmade fertiilisers contain trace elements that organic composts and manures dont, somewhat hard to swallow. for many years we were sold fertilisers on the basis that they contained one or all of the "3 essential plant foods, nitrogen, phosphorous and potash (npk)" in various proportions. some 15 years or so ago a few companies started adding sulphur , the sales pitch was that with the cleaner air now (less coal burning) there was insufficient sulphur being deposited from the atmosphere. it is well know that other mineral defficiencies (boron for example) will result in poor growth in certain crops. are you seriously claiming that the fertiliser industry now know all there is to know about micro nutrients and their effect on plant growth and are now adding a full cocktail of micronutrients to their fertilisers.?