How to prevent soil erosion,an interesting video

[Nature's Babe]

How to prevent soil erosion, improve soil permeability, and prevent run off and pollution of our water

http://www.permaculture.co.uk/videos/so ... il-erosion

[alan refail]

By way of balance.

If an acre of rainforest can’t support a single orang-utan, what chance do humans have of living without traditional farming?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/89 ... orest.html

[Nature's Babe]

From what I understand many conventional farmers are having a tough time Alan, and all the rain will have leached the chemical fertilisers into our rivers and water supply, not good, the permaculture food forests and mulched gardens, do not have the same problems as natural renewal is happening continuously. I notice our local farmer is ploughing a lot less, planted his beans straight into the wheat stubble last year.An acre of permaculture food forest can produce equal if not more produce than an acre of conventional farming, and once planted using minimal labour and without using precious oil. without chemical pollution while actually sequestering carbon.
With respect Alan this has nothing to do with orangoutans or rainforest. With no input from man there is nothing wrong with the fertility of rainforest, only that we have destroyed acres of it that many diverse plants and creatures thrived in and depended upon, it also helped to regulate our climate.

[alan refail]

An acre of permaculture food forest can produce equal if not more produce than an acre of conventional farming, and once planted using minimal labour and without using precious oil. without chemical pollution while actually sequestering carbon.

I think I would need some facts and figures from independent research before accepting such a statement.

The picture is of a "forest garden" taken from here http://www.pikespeakpermaculture.org/wh ... st-garden/

Forest garden.jpg (61.71 KiB) Viewed 5590 times

Note: it is a "garden" not agriculture, so the comparison would better be with a "conventional" garden.

I don't see the potatoes, peas, beans, beetroot, tomatoes, peppers, sweetcorn etc etc which most people would consider "crops".

To my eyes it's a wonderful area for foraging fruit, nuts and fungi at appropriate times of the year, but not much else. Hence the relevance of the orang-utan in its forest garden.

[Johnboy]

Hi NB,
Yes farmers are having a bad time at present because the people of this country want their food on the cheap.
So you think that Permaculture will produce more than 4 tons to the acre of Wheat and I say you are out of your mind if you think that could ever be the truth.
For those who pursue the Permaculture route that is fine by me just so long as they begin the realise the restrictions that it throws up with commercial production. Permaculture is not the be all and end all of growing as some of you would make out.
We do get a certain amount of erosion and it would take only one huge deluge to totally sweep all your permaculture away causing exactly what you are trying to tell us all that it would prevent.
I have no doubts that for some Permaculture works well but only on small applications and it is never going to be a world beater!
JB.

[Geoff]

Possibly doesn't really fit here but I found this interesting. I didn't realise the relative importance of corn and specifically US corn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... sis-closer

[Arnie]

Hi Geoff,

Your right your posting should not be here, it should be as a new topic so all can see and read as it is far to important to be hidden away.

Regards

Arnie

[Nature's Babe]

Hi Johnboy and Alan, with respect it is not just that people want cheap food, we cannot ignore the fact that our present day intensive farming and the mass manufacture and distribution of food is very heavily oil dependent oil is more expensive and in decline. Most of our intensively grown and imported food is absolutely dripping in oil, the oil used in growing transporting and manufacturing before it reaches us ! Also monoculture favoured by intensive farming and the chemicals they use certainly are not helpful to our pollinators and natural pollination is worth preserving as pollination by hand is tedious and would cost us a fortune! Bees are actually faring better in city areas where many permaculture roof gardens and small plots are springing up, many of you have been complaining of an absence of pollinators surely we should consider bio diversity too? Ask yourselves how intensive fertiliser and pesticide dependent farming will fare without a ready and cheap supply of oil? The fertilisers are made from oil ! Nature has managed to feed us since time began and done a wonderful job, we can learn from her and bend the principles she uses to produce food without the need for oil or any other input apart from minimal upkeep and harvesting, more can be produced because as your video explains food is produced on many levels, from fungi under the soil right up to the canopy. Before oil runs out something else needs to be put in its place, and it takes time to put back the natural organisms within a living soil. also most of our food is imported, so UK farming is not actually providing for us now anyway, agreed they have had poor government support, our average farmer is over 60 years old and numbers are dwindling.
I was surprised you used an American example of a food forest, we do have examples here in UK in devon a research facility by the agro forestry commission so you could do worse than look for the research there, there is a link to courses and research here

http://transitionculture.org/2009/02/11 ... ay-series/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u75q3KaZGy4

Forest gardens are springing up in our cities

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iwg_ru5nT0

Forest gardens can feed many generations sustainably

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hftgWcD-1Nw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao

[Nature's Babe]

We must have posted at the same time, thank you Geoff an important post, as can be seen with global warming we can't rely on imports, we have destroyed many of the worlds forests and trees which help to regulate climate with these catastrophic effects. The more trees and eco systems we can plant the better! We did it in the war and managed to feed ourselves, but population is much bigger now - it will take a big effort from us all.

[John Walker]

Nature's Babe, thanks so much for posting this video. I actually had it on my list to post on my own website as it's such a quietly informing yet fantastic demonstration of how the way we treat our soils - in gardens or in fields - has profound effects on how they function, either in our favour or otherwise.

It's watchable proof, communicated in a thoughtful way, of the value of no-dig/low-till cultivation techniques used on any scale. I highly recommend this 7 minutes to all forum members/readers.

Of course your link from the Permaculture magazine website merely picked up on Ray Archuleta's teaching demonstration. He didn't mention permaculture himself, so it's disappointing to see the thread drift off onto a bit of permaculture bashing. I was also disappointed to read Ken Thompson, a writer (and scientist) I admire, using so many words to pour cold water on permaculture, especially when he obviously hasn't taken the time to fully understand it. In the context of Ray Archuleta's demo, the 'orang-utan question' et al is merely a distraction. A discussion of forest gardening - and how we need to move toward a more plant-based diet - probably merits a whole new thread.

Holistic, ecological design that's inspired by nature - which is what 'permaculture' is - what's not to like? I've studied permaculture myself and, compared to my formal horticultural training, it was a life-changing experience. It's not perfect by any means, but neither is 'traditional' gardening, but it does inspire you to look much more closely at what you're doing and come up with solutions that often combine ideas from very different places.

This thread was about how the way we care for our soils affects how they work and support us, or how they might work against us (by exacerbating flooding, etc). It would be great if we could focus on that. Do watch the video!

[Colin Miles]

NB wrote

we cannot ignore the fact that our present day intensive farming and the mass manufacture and distribution of food is very heavily oil dependent oil is more expensive and in decline.

Alas oil is no more in decline than it was 50 years ago when we were first warned that we were running out - I remember it as I worked for SMBP then. The price is cyclical and currently likely to decline due to the depression and also all the new shale deposits that are being developed. Indeed there is the possibility that with new technologies will ensure that the development of what they call tight oil will revolutionise the situation. Which doesn't decry from technologies such as permaculture, but this is just one aspect of the way we live and unlikely to revolutionise our lives, or indeed contribute much to feeding the world.

[Nature's Babe]

Thank you John, for your pertinent comments, I did not post the first permaculture pic and link btw,

This feels like just another distraction from this very informative video which offers visual evidence of the value of not disturbing the soil Colin, do start your own link on fracking if it really interests you, but having see
fracking is new here, so we have not yet experienced the drawbacks as they have in the US. We have periods of drought and fracking is a water intensive practise! it uses some very nasty chemicals, and is not a cheap way of extracting oil, also there have been many unwanted side effects in US, Earth tremors, pollution of local water supplies, tumbling house prices, to name a few not to mention the oil used with lorries to and fro site, factor in these costs and it is even more expensive!
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-pa ... 190886.ece

[alan refail]

I was also disappointed to read Ken Thompson, a writer (and scientist) I admire, using so many words to pour cold water on permaculture, especially when he obviously hasn't taken the time to fully understand it.

I suspect that to many people he is talking common sense rather than idealism. To feed people disturbing the soil is essential; to suggest otherwise is to condone hunger.

[Nature's Babe]

Again you are failing to address the subject of this thread Alan, the video,, but I guess it is pretty self evident and hard to dispute. I disagree with your unsubstantiated assumptions. Farming intensively depletes the soil and despoils ecosystems causing run of into our water supplies rivers and the oceans and is far more likely to cause hunger plus other problems of pollution.

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ces/guides/Green ... on%20D.pdf

[alan refail]

NB

I have watched the video, otherwise I would not have considered it proper to reply. What it points out is self-evident (common sense, as you say). I have only one quarrel with it: that is that prevention of the problems illustrated relies on a total change to most of the world's agricultural practices and that ain't going to happen ever (maybe not common sense, but an acknowledgement of reality). That is why I posted the balancing article on permaculture. Hunger exists in vast areas of the world now and is getting worse. I simply cannot believe that no-dig/permaculture/organic practices have any hope of alleviating the situation. If you can offer evidence to the contrary I should be glad to change my views.