Seed Catalogues

[John]

Hello Johnboy
I think the process that you are looking for is 'rogueing' or also known as 'rogueing out'. When the variety is grown for seed production, any plants that differ significantly from the expected variety are weeded out before they get a chance to reproduce. Maintaining the variety true to type simply depends on the skill of the seedsman.

This is my own attempt a copying and pasting, far more modest than Piglet's I'm afraid!

"Seed saved from open-pollinated vegetables can be expected to produce offspring similar to the parent plants, assuming that only similar plants are allowed to contribute pollen and make seed. Open-pollinated varieties (OPs) are bred by allowing a large number of plants to freely cross for several generations; any plants that do not conform to the desired traits are culled before they can contribute to the subsequent generation (this process is known as rogueing)."

John

[Piglet]

Just the same way that some pigs were bred for bacon and others for meat JB, through constantly picking the best animals / plants that had the characteristics you wanted and keeping seed from that. I expect that it took many generations to get to the plants we have today and without that diversity you wouldnt get any plant material to breed F1's from. Also you get an occasional "sport" as in yellow raspberries etc

And by the way only part of it was cut and pasted. I am very familiar with dominant and recessive genes from a previous career but you did ask for an explanation so it seemed churlish not to give you an in depth one.

[Allan]

I am just woundering about the way that this rogueing is done.In the case of tomato plants, to be sure that the strain is true to the standards that you set you would have to take the plant through the complete life cycle. In the case of cherry tomatoes you would have to examine the fruit as to quality and size at several stages in the life of each plant. I have been growing some OP cherries and it turns out that in my judgement the later fruit bore little resemblance in size or flavour to the earlier fruit. Thus every plant of those destined to be used for seed would have to have its fruit checked several times. Do you really think this is always done, in particular would those volunteers who are helping Real Seeds be doing it.
Allan

[Piglet]

I wouldnt know Allan but in my humble experience all of the open polinated seeds that I have grown (from all suppliers) have done what they said on the tin, as I must say have the F1's bar my neglect and adverse growing conditions.

The open pollinated ones I should imagine are constantly evolving albeit slowly which is why the seed "resembles" its parent. They are not clones after all. I have some chilli seeds that I have re-selected for over 3 seasons now and they certainly resemble the original plant. However, perhaps there will be a noticeable difference in 30 years time if I kept doing it.

[Piglet]

If anybody gets "Garden News", on page 2 there is a small article on "The Real Seed" people.

[jopsy]

omg you lot lost me on page 2!
i'll thank you for the list of seed suppliers i'm currently thinking about what i'd like to grow next year-should while away a few hours
suttons seeds are from torquay-but i'm damned if i can find a cheaper place near me than trago mills!

[Wellie]

I thought Trago Mills burned down ! or is there one nearer to you than Bovey/Exeter-ish ? I seem to remember them being good value though...

[jopsy]

oh it did burn down-its at stover/ newton abbot
they built it back up bigger and better
the gardening part is quite reasonable for seeds theres quite a lrg choice too (well for an amateur!)

[Monika]

I don't think anybody has mentioned Suffolk Herbs. I know they are part of Kings, but they do have some different varieties, including more herbs and unusual vegetables, and are always very prompt and reliable.

For potatoes, we always use Thompson and Morgan because their packs are in number of seed potatoes (eg 20 potatoes or 40 potatoes) rather than weight and the planting is therefore easier to plan. Just a suggestion.

[Iain]

Alan Romans is selling his seed potatoes in smaller bags for next year- and super selection. You'd think I was a shareholder the way I bang on about his stuff! I'm not!

[Mike Vogel]

Hi Zena, Sorry to be boring, but I'm just posting a simple reply to your question. I use

Chase Organics ‘The Organic Gardening Catalogue’
www.organicCatalogue.com

However, I'm sure that there are other organic seed providers, if that's what you are after, and I think I'll delve into all the providers mentioned by others in this chain; it looks fascinating.

I've also found the American "Seeds of Change" - an easily-found website.

I might say that I have had trouble germinating some of the stuff from the OGC, especially Hamberg parsley and some dwarf beans, but I suspect the fault is mine rather than theirs.

Best wishes
mike

[Johnboy]

Hi Mike,
I have never had any difficulty with Hamburg Parsley
and I normally sow it fairly thick down the row and the thinning's when young make wonderful Flat Parsley for freezing. I have not grown it for a number of years now but you have given me the urge to grow it again. Hamburg Parsley makes wonderful deep-fried chips. (as do Parsnips)
Which varieties of Beans have you had difficulty with? Are you sure that you do not have a mouse problem? I say this because a few years back I saw that some French Climbing Beans were coming through very late one evening and when I went back only 5 hours later they had all been eaten off to ground level and even below ground level. I sowed again and put them in a vermin cage and got super results.
French Beans both Dwarf and Climbing varieties are epigeal and carry their cotyledons above ground which are full of goodies to feed the beans and mice find them irresistible whereas Runner Beans they seem to leave alone.
JB.

[cevenol jardin]

I've been planning my seed purchase for the year and have decided not to have any F1 varieties this year for the simple reason i want to save the seeds. I had a search on this forum to see if there was any discussion on the matter and came accross this thread. Great and thanks to piglet for the scientific stuff -

At the risk of sounding like a utopian fool this is my take on it.

Historically speaking domestic gardeners have collected and sowed the seeds from the plants we found most useful. Each year as seeds are gathered they bring with them genetic and dynamic information. Seeds saved for generations carry characteristics that are important in the preservation of genetic diversity, they carry the adaptations the plant has made in order to reproduce in its local conditions, resistance to diseases, evolution needs that information in order to carry forward for future generations.

If we do not protect the heirloom and open pollinated seeds for food production the availablity of seed will be in the hands of specialists at best or large corporations at worst that breed to improve uniformity, consistant maturation and larger yields as required by large scale agriculture at the expense of taste, nutritional value and small scale production requirements (i.e.cropping over longer periods). If commercial seed companies breed F1 seeds that rely on proprietary fertilisers and pesticides, (in the case of Monsanto in India) then the seeds are
useless to those without the means to pay for not only the seeds each year but the chemicals necessary to grow them.

When seeds are bred in controlled conditions they can be weakened making them less hardy or able to adapt to climate extremes or new diseases. But worst of all when seeds are bred in such a way that the plant cannot reproduce successfully these plants are static
and cannot evolve.

It is a very simple requirement to be able to save the seed from a plant in order to grow it the following year.

JB seemed to be concerned that a named variety might over time loose its sameness - BUT that is the point isn't it. Plant life is dynamic i want my vegetables to adapt - nature is not static and i don't want to make it so.

Given our changing climate it is even more important that we allow plants to evolve dynamically as they adapt to their changing climate and our local ecosystems.

This year along with our own saved seed we are growing from seeds that come from heritage or heirloom sources exclusively. I have tried some F1 seeds and found for some varieties particularly brassicas, corn and curcubits they were not able to withstand the almost biblical waves of pestilance we seem to get here. Without the use of chemicals - which we are not prepared to use - they do not fare as well as the heirloom varieties.

The older varieties represent strains that have been handed down the generations saved by hand as they have adapted because of their value and strength. By starting with open pollinated seeds we can collect seeds each year and grow plants which, through careful selection of seeds from the best plants improve year on year.

[oldherbaceous]

Dear cevenol jardin, far from sounding like a utopian fool, i found it very pleasant to read.
I also love your dry stone walling, it looks an amazing place where you live.

[Piglet]

Cevenol, a far more eloquent way of poutting forward the points that I tried to make.