Getting closer but still very confused just checked with plants for a future database Swiss Chard is not named Beta vulgaris cicla but Beta vulgaris flavescens can anybody back this up? or offer up any other places to check http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php ... flavescens
Beta cicla = Spinach Beet
Beta vulgaris cicla = Spinach Beet
Beta lomatogona =?
Beta maritima = Sea beet
Beta trigyna = ?
Beta vulgaris altissima = sugar beet
Beta vulgaris craca = beetroot
Beta vulgaris flavescens = Swiss Chard
Beta vulgaris maritima = Sea Beet
Swiss Chard
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter
-
cevenol jardin
- KG Regular
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:27 pm
- Location: Cevennes Mountains, France
- Contact:
-
cevenol jardin
- KG Regular
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:27 pm
- Location: Cevennes Mountains, France
- Contact:
not being pedantic you understand i just like to know these things-
P.S i will sadly be away from my computer over the New Year so will not be able to carry on with this thread for next 5 days eiks and i really wanted to know the answer hope someone can work it out
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE
P.S i will sadly be away from my computer over the New Year so will not be able to carry on with this thread for next 5 days eiks and i really wanted to know the answer hope someone can work it out
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE
Getting closer to the land www.masdudiable.com
I cannot accept that there is any connection between the Beta family and the 'spinach-like' Good King Henry (not Harry) and New Zealand Spinach. The leaf shape is the obvious discrepancy, the latter have a very charecteristic goosefoot shaped leaf.
Later:
I have consulted my wife, daughter of a zoology professor.
Starting at angeosperms e.g. monocotyledons, dicotyledons, that has subsections such as in this case berberidaceae of which all the beta vulgaris are members
OR from the chenopodiaceae (goosefoots in English)_ we have chenopodiums including fat hen, NZ spinachetc, all recognized by leaf shape
Also from chenopidaceae we get the chrysanthemum family some of which are edible.
Later:
I have consulted my wife, daughter of a zoology professor.
Starting at angeosperms e.g. monocotyledons, dicotyledons, that has subsections such as in this case berberidaceae of which all the beta vulgaris are members
OR from the chenopodiaceae (goosefoots in English)_ we have chenopodiums including fat hen, NZ spinachetc, all recognized by leaf shape
Also from chenopidaceae we get the chrysanthemum family some of which are edible.
Last edited by Allan on Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
Let's get New Zealand "spinach" out of the frame once and for all. I cannot imagine why anyone attached the name spinach to it - it doesn't cook like spinach or taste like spinach. It is quite pleasant, though bland, in salads.
It is totally unrelated to Chenopodiaceae (Beta etc). It is Tetragonia tetragonioides, a member of the family Aizioaceae, which also includes Mesembryanthemum and many more mostly succulent plants.
Incidentally, Allan, Good King Harry is a common alternative to Good King Henry. The name comes from German Guter Heinrich (Heinrich here being an elf or spirit). The King was put in, for obvious reasons, by the Tudor herbalists. Another common name in Northern England is Mercury - which we used to call it when I was a boy in Lancashire. The poisonous Dog's Mercury is Bose Heinrich in German - Bad Henry.
Cyntaf ei og cyntaf ei gryman
First with his harrow first with his sickle
It is totally unrelated to Chenopodiaceae (Beta etc). It is Tetragonia tetragonioides, a member of the family Aizioaceae, which also includes Mesembryanthemum and many more mostly succulent plants.
Incidentally, Allan, Good King Harry is a common alternative to Good King Henry. The name comes from German Guter Heinrich (Heinrich here being an elf or spirit). The King was put in, for obvious reasons, by the Tudor herbalists. Another common name in Northern England is Mercury - which we used to call it when I was a boy in Lancashire. The poisonous Dog's Mercury is Bose Heinrich in German - Bad Henry.
Cyntaf ei og cyntaf ei gryman
First with his harrow first with his sickle
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
Certainly beta is a goosefoot (tired of trying to spell Cheno*******iae) family member.
Research this http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/family.pl?254
And here's another to look at http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Beta.html
Best wishes Alan
Research this http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/family.pl?254
And here's another to look at http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Beta.html
Best wishes Alan
Sorry for the mistake, the text was out of date, I cannot find the date of the changeover. All modern texts give beet family as Chenopods
"true" spinach is an Amaranth
This debate brings up the question of what to do to rotate crops when considering pests and diseases.
A nice little snippet new to me is as follows.
"The myth about spinach and its high iron content may have first been propagated by Dr. E. von Wolf in 1870, because a misplaced decimal point in his publication led to an iron-content figure that was ten times too high. In 1937, German chemists reinvestigated this "miracle vegetable" and corrected the mistake. It was described by T.J. Hamblin in British Medical Journal, December 1981."
Later:
You can't win. No sooner had I typed the above than I found a Wikipedia update, thus
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach
Top of page 4
we read that Chard/Beta vulgaris, Orache, and Good King Henry and other Chenopodium species are all classed as Amaranthaceae, which makes nonsense of our attempts to sort it out.
The footnote says "this page was last modified...00:27/20 December 2006"
Popeye
"true" spinach is an Amaranth
This debate brings up the question of what to do to rotate crops when considering pests and diseases.
A nice little snippet new to me is as follows.
"The myth about spinach and its high iron content may have first been propagated by Dr. E. von Wolf in 1870, because a misplaced decimal point in his publication led to an iron-content figure that was ten times too high. In 1937, German chemists reinvestigated this "miracle vegetable" and corrected the mistake. It was described by T.J. Hamblin in British Medical Journal, December 1981."
Later:
You can't win. No sooner had I typed the above than I found a Wikipedia update, thus
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach
Top of page 4
we read that Chard/Beta vulgaris, Orache, and Good King Henry and other Chenopodium species are all classed as Amaranthaceae, which makes nonsense of our attempts to sort it out.
The footnote says "this page was last modified...00:27/20 December 2006"
Popeye
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
Whichever way you look at it, it seems that beet/chard/spinach all belong to the same family if Chenopodiaceae are all subsumed under Amaranthaceae.
I have learned a lot more than I expected from this thread.
ChenopodiaceaeFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chenopodiaceae is the botanical name for a family of flowering plants. This family has been recognized by most taxonomists, but not by the APG II system, of 2003 (unchanged from the APG system, of 1998). The APG has placed these plants in family Amaranthaceae.
Some fourteen hundred species were accepted in this family. Food species include Quinoa, Kañiwa, Fat Hen, Good King Henry, and Epazote (Chenopodium spp.), Orache (Atriplex spp.), spinach (Spinacia oleracea), and, of greatest commercial importance, the crops derived from Beta vulgaris: Sugar beet, Beet, Mangelwurzel and Chard.
Genera of some importance include Atriplex, Beta, Chenopodium, Halogeton, Halosarcia, Salicornia, Salsola, Sarcocornia.
I have learned a lot more than I expected from this thread.
ChenopodiaceaeFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chenopodiaceae is the botanical name for a family of flowering plants. This family has been recognized by most taxonomists, but not by the APG II system, of 2003 (unchanged from the APG system, of 1998). The APG has placed these plants in family Amaranthaceae.
Some fourteen hundred species were accepted in this family. Food species include Quinoa, Kañiwa, Fat Hen, Good King Henry, and Epazote (Chenopodium spp.), Orache (Atriplex spp.), spinach (Spinacia oleracea), and, of greatest commercial importance, the crops derived from Beta vulgaris: Sugar beet, Beet, Mangelwurzel and Chard.
Genera of some importance include Atriplex, Beta, Chenopodium, Halogeton, Halosarcia, Salicornia, Salsola, Sarcocornia.
Allan,
You are getting yourself in a mess and it is really all very simple. The family name is Amaranthaceae
and the Sub family is Chenopodeadcae. It just goes to show that many vegetables are related but miles apart as we know them. Good King Harry is a Chenopodium. If you were to compare the Flowers and the Seeds to me it is quite apparent.
Chrysanthemums are not related to Chard or Spinach and are in the family Asteraceae. Alternatively you may find it under Compositae but it was renamed a few years back and that is now out of date.
I do not think that we should worry about rotation of crops because these crops do not have the same capabilities of passing on disease, as in Potatoes or Brassicas, to future crops.
Alan,
Dogs and Annual mercury are in the family are of the Spurge family which is Euphorbiaceae and again not related to the "Beets." However I have heard of another name for Spinach or Chard as ------ Mercury.
Perhaps somebody could supply the missing word!
I thank you for your information.
JB.
You are getting yourself in a mess and it is really all very simple. The family name is Amaranthaceae
and the Sub family is Chenopodeadcae. It just goes to show that many vegetables are related but miles apart as we know them. Good King Harry is a Chenopodium. If you were to compare the Flowers and the Seeds to me it is quite apparent.
Chrysanthemums are not related to Chard or Spinach and are in the family Asteraceae. Alternatively you may find it under Compositae but it was renamed a few years back and that is now out of date.
I do not think that we should worry about rotation of crops because these crops do not have the same capabilities of passing on disease, as in Potatoes or Brassicas, to future crops.
Alan,
Dogs and Annual mercury are in the family are of the Spurge family which is Euphorbiaceae and again not related to the "Beets." However I have heard of another name for Spinach or Chard as ------ Mercury.
Perhaps somebody could supply the missing word!
I thank you for your information.
JB.
-
Mr Potato Head
Well, I couldn't have asked for a better topic posting, well done (and thank you) CJ! 
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
Sorry to harp on. I said let's get "New Zealand Spinach out of the frame".
It is not related to Spinach (via Chenopodiaceae or Amaranthaceae) in any way. The leaf shape is not a guide. After all Ivy (Hedera helix) has a very similar leaf but I am not going to advocate using it as a spinach substitute
I notice that all the seed catalogues continue to list NZSp under spinach and/or talk of it as a spinach substitute.
Perhaps we would do well to imitate the French who call it Tetragonie, or perhaps, like the Italians and Botanists we could just call it Tetragonia.
It is not related to Spinach (via Chenopodiaceae or Amaranthaceae) in any way. The leaf shape is not a guide. After all Ivy (Hedera helix) has a very similar leaf but I am not going to advocate using it as a spinach substitute
I notice that all the seed catalogues continue to list NZSp under spinach and/or talk of it as a spinach substitute.
Perhaps we would do well to imitate the French who call it Tetragonie, or perhaps, like the Italians and Botanists we could just call it Tetragonia.
Cred air o bob deg a glywi, a thi a gei rywfaint bach o wir (hen ddihareb Gymraeg)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
-
cevenol jardin
- KG Regular
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:27 pm
- Location: Cevennes Mountains, France
- Contact:
Good idea Alan - not that i am advocating all things french but Tetragone is the french word which could be anglicised to Tetragon for our purposes, if that is ok with everyone.
I am just putting up a new plant profile on Tetragon now - see what you think
I am just putting up a new plant profile on Tetragon now - see what you think
Getting closer to the land www.masdudiable.com
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 5 times
CJ
An excellent new profile,
In my post I had intended to suggest Tetragon. If anyone objects to the French-sounding name, we will have to translate to Fourcornered (reference to the seed shape), Sounds odd, but in Welsh we call real spinach pigoglys, which means pricklyplant (again with reference to the seed).
An excellent new profile,
In my post I had intended to suggest Tetragon. If anyone objects to the French-sounding name, we will have to translate to Fourcornered (reference to the seed shape), Sounds odd, but in Welsh we call real spinach pigoglys, which means pricklyplant (again with reference to the seed).
Cred air o bob deg a glywi, a thi a gei rywfaint bach o wir (hen ddihareb Gymraeg)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
-
cevenol jardin
- KG Regular
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:27 pm
- Location: Cevennes Mountains, France
- Contact:
Has anyone noticed that the ruby chard (or red stalks in a bright lights mix) can have a smell and a hint of rubarb, it certainly looks a bit like it. I was collecting some bright lights that has been in the ground a whole year - the roots are clearing the ground by a good 15cm (6") but the leaves are still ok - and i noticed the red ones smelled like rubarb 
Is that a breeding legacy ?
Is that a breeding legacy ?
Getting closer to the land www.masdudiable.com
-
Primrose
- KG Regular
- Posts: 8061
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:50 pm
- Location: Bucks.
- Has thanked: 41 times
- Been thanked: 288 times
i've just picked the last of my Bright Lights Swiss Chard and also noticed that the roots seem to be protruding quite markedly from the ground. Also it seems to have a much stronger earthy taste (more like beetroot) than the green variety. Mine was on the cusp of going to seed so I needed to use it up quickly. I will probably grow a few plants for decorative purposes mixed in with my flowers, but on balance am not sure I like it enough to grow it as a regular edible food crop.