Silly question I know, however which way up do I sow broad bean seeds, does the edge with the brown mark go up or down, i.e. does it produce the roots or the shoots?
Does it matter?
sowing broad bean seed
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter
Both come out from the scar, I remember sprouting a broad bean between a cylinder of blotting paper and the glass in a jam jar in primary school. They will sort themselves out, but I believe it is generally thought better to sow the bean 'on edge' to prevent rotting.
I am sure Johnboy did some experiments that he reported on the old forum, so hopefully he will be along with a summary soon.
I am sure Johnboy did some experiments that he reported on the old forum, so hopefully he will be along with a summary soon.
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paul.r
if you study the scar there is a rounded end and a pointy end i was always told pointy end down this goes for all beans as far as i know. but do as i say and not as i do and all that . i sow all my beans, runner, french, broad and all on their side and never have any trouble....rgds paul.
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sandersj89
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To be honest it makes little differance but I sow them on their edge with the scar at one end.
If you think about it, nature would have them lying all over the place in all positions and they would work.
The seed will know which way is down for the root and up for the shoot.
Jerry
If you think about it, nature would have them lying all over the place in all positions and they would work.
The seed will know which way is down for the root and up for the shoot.
Jerry
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Hello Val
The seeds are best sown in an upright position with the scar pointing down. This puts the seed in the best postion for the first root to grow straight down and the new shoot upwards without them needing to do any twisting or turning to get into the right directions. If you are sowing in pots, modules or rootrainers this is important because the developing plant has little room for manoeuvre but in the open ground I suppose it doesn't make much difference.
John
The seeds are best sown in an upright position with the scar pointing down. This puts the seed in the best postion for the first root to grow straight down and the new shoot upwards without them needing to do any twisting or turning to get into the right directions. If you are sowing in pots, modules or rootrainers this is important because the developing plant has little room for manoeuvre but in the open ground I suppose it doesn't make much difference.
John
Hi Val, Jerry and Paul,
Jerry, what you have said may well be true and that is assuming that in nature there is no difference in the outcome. Which I very much doubt.
I did a series of experiments a couple of years ago and this was for Bean seed sown in 7cm square pots.
As John quite rightly points out if sown in pots or root trainers the beans do not have the room to manouvre themselves to the correct growing attitude
due to the confinement of the pot. If growing in pots or trainers it is therefore sensible to consider the outcome of my experiments.
I found that those planted SCAR DOWN were by far the best with 100% germination and not only that they were better plants. Those planted on their side were a way behind them and those sown scar up were absolutely hopeless. This goes for all beans.
Why give your plant a hard time when you need to use the vigour of the seed to be used in your favour.
Nobody has ever said that planted in a different attitude they will not grow.
On this forum we try hard to pull together and help each other. I posted my findings to try and help people get the best out of what they have in good faith. I am suggesting that you get better and quicker results by sowing as I suggest but of course people are free to do as they wish.
The Broad beans differs slightly in as much that only one spur comes from the scar and when it has emerged it splits into a Radicle and Plumule and one goes up and the other down. This is predetermined by the seed so if planted with scar up the spur has to twist 180 degrees for the bean to develop properly.
This takes time and as a commercial grower 'times money.' I am a professional propagtor now retired.
With Runner Beans sown scar up in pots you get cases where the plumule opens underground and thrusts the radicle out of the soil which is not a lot of use to anybody.
In the magazine Edwin Oxlade suggested that RB's should be sown scar to the side which is called sitting on the fence. Sown scar to the side you can either be 100% right or 100% wrong but plant scar down you cannot be wrong!
Paul,
I do not fully understand the rounded or the pointy end of the scar. So long as that means DOWN then all will be fine.
Jerry, what you have said may well be true and that is assuming that in nature there is no difference in the outcome. Which I very much doubt.
I did a series of experiments a couple of years ago and this was for Bean seed sown in 7cm square pots.
As John quite rightly points out if sown in pots or root trainers the beans do not have the room to manouvre themselves to the correct growing attitude
due to the confinement of the pot. If growing in pots or trainers it is therefore sensible to consider the outcome of my experiments.
I found that those planted SCAR DOWN were by far the best with 100% germination and not only that they were better plants. Those planted on their side were a way behind them and those sown scar up were absolutely hopeless. This goes for all beans.
Why give your plant a hard time when you need to use the vigour of the seed to be used in your favour.
Nobody has ever said that planted in a different attitude they will not grow.
On this forum we try hard to pull together and help each other. I posted my findings to try and help people get the best out of what they have in good faith. I am suggesting that you get better and quicker results by sowing as I suggest but of course people are free to do as they wish.
The Broad beans differs slightly in as much that only one spur comes from the scar and when it has emerged it splits into a Radicle and Plumule and one goes up and the other down. This is predetermined by the seed so if planted with scar up the spur has to twist 180 degrees for the bean to develop properly.
This takes time and as a commercial grower 'times money.' I am a professional propagtor now retired.
With Runner Beans sown scar up in pots you get cases where the plumule opens underground and thrusts the radicle out of the soil which is not a lot of use to anybody.
In the magazine Edwin Oxlade suggested that RB's should be sown scar to the side which is called sitting on the fence. Sown scar to the side you can either be 100% right or 100% wrong but plant scar down you cannot be wrong!
Paul,
I do not fully understand the rounded or the pointy end of the scar. So long as that means DOWN then all will be fine.
JB.
Let me say I am still undecided on this one in some respects but I have to agree with Johnboy that on edge, scar up is going to be hopeless for obvious reasons. I did some hurried experiments last year, I'm afraid the labelling got muddled so I cannot quote results from that. As to the scar, it doesn't take much examining to see that the point of the root is one end and by default the seed leaves or whatever they are called must come out the other way. Speaking from memory for the broad bean you have at one end the pointed bit and this I think corresponds to the fatter end, looking a bit like buttocks. However when the bean grows the root will find its way down in most situations but the leaves and growing tip must head upwards and it seems to do that rather 'head down' and then uncurl, hopefully shedding the outer case as it does so. Quite often I have to assist my beans in this final act of birth. I will repeat the tests before I comment further on broad beans, As far as I am concerned the runner bean represents a greater challenge as its overall shape is much smoother i.e. the 'buttocks' are not apparent to me. Lastly I did put a lot of beans on their side, making sure that they had sufficient depth and I was certainly not short of plants to put out so it can't have been all that bad. I have a book on how plants grow which purports to explain it all, unfortunately the illustrations are ambiguous so that doesn't solve the problem.
Allan
Allan
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paul.r
Hello Johnboy. I checked my facts (something i should have done before posting) and my recollections of the pointy bit down were incorrect. My rule of thumb about sowing beans on their side is what i always do. that is longways in the compost with the scar running horizontally and to the side.
My senior momments are becoming more frequent and it is of course cucumbers,melons etc. that are sown pointy end down (thats the shape of the seed itself).
The information regarding inspection of the scar and sowing beans came from an information given by Brython Stenner perhaps the most respected runner bean grower of his generation. The instructions were to inspect the scar and at one end there is a dimple. the beans should be sown lengthways down with the scar at the bottom. (these are instructions for sowing runner beans in pots and to assist uniform germination.) water well but only once to avoid rotting. 12 degrees c is the best temperature. The moral here for me, is not to trust my memory but to double check first...rgds paul.
My senior momments are becoming more frequent and it is of course cucumbers,melons etc. that are sown pointy end down (thats the shape of the seed itself).
The information regarding inspection of the scar and sowing beans came from an information given by Brython Stenner perhaps the most respected runner bean grower of his generation. The instructions were to inspect the scar and at one end there is a dimple. the beans should be sown lengthways down with the scar at the bottom. (these are instructions for sowing runner beans in pots and to assist uniform germination.) water well but only once to avoid rotting. 12 degrees c is the best temperature. The moral here for me, is not to trust my memory but to double check first...rgds paul.
Hi Paul,
I bet your moments are not as senior as mine!! And that is not meant as a brag!! Simply awful at times.
That aside; with a Broad Bean it balances on it's scar and that is the correct attitude to plant it.
I soak mine for a short period no more than a couple of hours and when planted they need watering but thereafter the Bean will do the rest unaided.
This really goes for Runner Beans as well with regards to water. If you water them they have a tendency to rot off.
If you take a Runner Bean and run your finger over the scar lenghtways there is a sharp tit at one end and a mound at the other. If you then look at it closely at the mounded end you will note that right on the edge of the scar, but not on the scar, you will note the hole where the radicle will appear.
If you want to have a better look carefully take the Testa (Hard Casing) from the bean, around that area, and it will become crystal clear as there is a kind of flap which hinges to allow the radicle out.. If you are very careful you can still use the bean as a seed.
I bet your moments are not as senior as mine!! And that is not meant as a brag!! Simply awful at times.
That aside; with a Broad Bean it balances on it's scar and that is the correct attitude to plant it.
I soak mine for a short period no more than a couple of hours and when planted they need watering but thereafter the Bean will do the rest unaided.
This really goes for Runner Beans as well with regards to water. If you water them they have a tendency to rot off.
If you take a Runner Bean and run your finger over the scar lenghtways there is a sharp tit at one end and a mound at the other. If you then look at it closely at the mounded end you will note that right on the edge of the scar, but not on the scar, you will note the hole where the radicle will appear.
If you want to have a better look carefully take the Testa (Hard Casing) from the bean, around that area, and it will become crystal clear as there is a kind of flap which hinges to allow the radicle out.. If you are very careful you can still use the bean as a seed.
JB.
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sandersj89
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I thought I would do a little digging around on the Net to see if there is any definitive answer but as usual in gardening there are as many different views as there are varieties of spud!!!
But I did find this article:
http://www.nccpg.com/Default.Aspx?Page.Aspx?Page=127
And from looking at the pictures it would seem scar down is right and suits the orientation of the radicle and plumule which beans appear to have both of.
So I may need to change my practise of planting on their edge after all!!
I did a quick check of my two sowings of broad beans last night, all in 4 sets of root trainers, 32 cells per tray.
2 Trays planted a week after the first two trays, all planted with the same variety from the same supplier and treated identically.
Tray 1 has germination rate of 30 out of 32.
Tray 2 has germination rate of 29 out of 32.
Tray 3 has germination rate of 30 out of 32.
Tray 4 has germination rate of 27 out of 32.
So that is just over 90% success rate which seems more than adequate and does beg the question whether if makes much difference anyway. I appreciate this is wholly unscientific of course.
When it comes to my runners later in the season I probably will pop them in scar down though.
Thanks
Jerry
But I did find this article:
http://www.nccpg.com/Default.Aspx?Page.Aspx?Page=127
And from looking at the pictures it would seem scar down is right and suits the orientation of the radicle and plumule which beans appear to have both of.
So I may need to change my practise of planting on their edge after all!!
I did a quick check of my two sowings of broad beans last night, all in 4 sets of root trainers, 32 cells per tray.
2 Trays planted a week after the first two trays, all planted with the same variety from the same supplier and treated identically.
Tray 1 has germination rate of 30 out of 32.
Tray 2 has germination rate of 29 out of 32.
Tray 3 has germination rate of 30 out of 32.
Tray 4 has germination rate of 27 out of 32.
So that is just over 90% success rate which seems more than adequate and does beg the question whether if makes much difference anyway. I appreciate this is wholly unscientific of course.
When it comes to my runners later in the season I probably will pop them in scar down though.
Thanks
Jerry
Farmers son looking to get back to the land full time one day.....
Holiday in Devon? Come stay with us: http://www.crablakefarm.co.uk/
Holiday in Devon? Come stay with us: http://www.crablakefarm.co.uk/
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Guest
I have been setting up a test sowing of 15 pots of each of the orientation possibilities. What I said was incorrect inasmuch as I was remembering the scar as on a long side, it is actually across a short side. It has 2 ends, one end goes to a thin edge, the other ends in what I called the buttocks. I haven't soaked the beans yet but at the buttocks end of the scar you can discern the tip of the root ready to come out when water seeps through a small hole there and as far as I can see the shape of it the pointed end is going away from the scar. I will finish setting up the trays and await results.
Allan
Allan
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Guest
Thanks for that website, it is very explicit, I think it says it all near enough. I will complete the test sowings anyway.
Allan
Allan
Hi Jerry,
Further to my rather winded posting this morning.
If when the beans get to about 9 inches tall, if you unearth one or leave a couple in their trainer, you will find out the final position of the cotyledons and by planting as I have suggested it gives them a far easier time orientating to where they finally finish up before they are expended and shrivel and drop off the plant.
With Runners the cotyledons do the same thing but with French climbing you will note that the cotyledons are carried above the ground so the sowing attitude is really important.
Further to my rather winded posting this morning.
If when the beans get to about 9 inches tall, if you unearth one or leave a couple in their trainer, you will find out the final position of the cotyledons and by planting as I have suggested it gives them a far easier time orientating to where they finally finish up before they are expended and shrivel and drop off the plant.
With Runners the cotyledons do the same thing but with French climbing you will note that the cotyledons are carried above the ground so the sowing attitude is really important.
JB.