Seedling disaster.

[Ricard with an H]

Can anyone help me with this problem that is occurring with most, not all, of my seedlings. They pop-up then fall over with no obvious signs i'm aware of.

Overwatering when I need to keep the compost moist is always a concern and a balancing act.

Is this to do with too many seeds in the one place ? how about night-time temperatures ? Most of my seedlings including the failed ones were raised indoors where the temperature rarely drops below 10 degrees overnight.

The failed/failing seedlings are Asters, a white Foxglove, a wildflower mix, Marigolds made it but some are now keeling-over with two sets of leaves. I didn't have any problems last year with vegetable plants and I have others that are happy under the same regime.

Broad beans are doing very-well together with overwintering spring onion, onion and garlic. I'm about to sow more vegetable and some beans with confidence based on last years experiences of sowing a little too early for this 'neck-O-the-woods' but the flower seeds are scary.

Of-course you'll know i'm big on wildflower sowing/plantings and I have picked-up on the complimentary planting amongst vegetables of certain flowers though the whole idea of flowers amongst my planting appeals because quite frankly a vegetable plot can look quite drab.

[FelixLeiter]

Damping off, perhaps?

[Ricard with an H]

Simple as that Eh ?

Thanks for the link, that is a much more comprehensive description than a couple of other attempts I read and dismissed as less probable because I don't have any signs other than the seedling falling over.

Presumably some plants are more susceptible than others because all my seeds were started off and continued in the same manner.

What about over-watering ? I suppose this opens a can-of-worms and we get to discussing different composts. I'm using peat for seeds then peat-free for potting-on and last year I was happy that my biggest problem with peat-free was that it tended to look dry yet was water-logged half-way down the pot.

Clay pots solved the problem.

Thanks Felix.

[Motherwoman]

I think you hit the mark with temp and watering and damping off. Something that I found helped one year was to water from below by standing in a large tray of water but you have to keep a close eye on it and whip the plant tray/pot out when you start to see water seeping to the top and then let it drain.

So disheartening though

MW

[Ricard with an H]

I am taking to watering from underneath though my propagator individual cells don't have holes, the pot-mums that just showed their heads look very happy. So far.

I just cleared all the road-kill out from the two trays of marigolds and only just noticed green mould on the surface of the compost but none on the surface of the other trays or food-packaging that I use for sowing seed.

Just checked all the seedling in my cold frame, broad-bean are super-healthy and the spring onion just nice for sandwiches. Just as well as I may have sulked today along with my little cocker-spaniel who's being stripped down of her winter fur today.

[PLUMPUDDING]

You are less likely to get damping off if you water seedlings with tap water and not water from a water butt too.

[Diane]

I alway water my seedlings with tap water - never rain water. And I keep a separate watering can for tap water only.

[Ricard with an H]

I alway water my seedlings with tap water - never rain water. .

Ahhh, and I thought we had to avoid chlorinated water for plants. I do mostly use tap water for seedlings, our tap water is very-very soft. I use water out of the dehumidifier if there is enough. For feed-watering I have a large butt that collects rainwater which is also the nettle/comfrey butt. It stinks year-round, even when it's frozen it stinks though it's 50 metres away from our house.

[Ricard with an H]

I've been doing lot's more reading and feel like a complete dunce, many years ago I was schooled into always washing pots and trays in Jeyes fluid. More recently within the last 15 years I was under the leadership of Fred my neighbour at the time and a keen gardener. Fred grew mostly fushia and tomato, all his fushia were from his own cuttings and he was meticulous with his pots and greenhouse repeating himself time and time again about cleanliness and sterilising. In fact he repeated himself in just the same way I do now because I forget I already told that story or gave that advice.

Seems I made an elementary mistake so i'm in the corner with my dunce hat on but thank you all for being so civil about it.

[FelixLeiter]

I might be wrong about this, and only a little experimentation will prove it, but I have a feeling that maybe the water from your dehumidifier may be culpable. Not that you can't use it for watering other things, just keep it away from your seedlings for a while to see what happens, is my suggestion.

It's true that some seedlings are more susceptible than others. Zinnias, for instance, find our damp British climate a trial even into their adult life, which is why they're not seen very often. When the weather warms up next week (no, really) a nice dose of sunshine should make a huge difference. In the meantime, Cheshunt compound is very effective. I might try a bit myself: I feel like I'm damping off.

[Johnboy]

Hi Felix,
[quote]The Chemicals Regulation Directorate has withdrawn Cheshunt Compound (copper sulphate) from sale as a fungicide for use against diseases such as damping off. However, you can continue to use product you currently hold until 30 November 2011. After that date you need to find an alternative.
(Swiped from the Internet)
[/[quote]
I would be more than interested as to what we amateur gardeners are to use to prevent damping-off.
JB.

[Geoff]

Damping off is something of a mystery, I don't think a search will give you a consensus.
I am not convinced that cleanliness is the answer, I think slightly dirty pots and trays stored dry do not increase the chances. It is possible the disinfecting mantra harps back to wooden seed trays.
Cheshunt Compound * was a fine solution but as JB says sadly withdrawn. I used to use it for all my early sowings in the propagator. There is an expensive substitute "Bayer Fruit & Vegetable Disease Control" based on copper oxychloride. The six sachets I have cost £6.75 and each makes 3 litres for damping off treatment, bit of a bugger to divide up to make a sensible volume. I have used it and didn't get any damping off but I didn't get any on untreated trays either.
My seedling raising is possibly a little different to what you often see on TV. I fill my trays and pots (I use all sorts of compost often of my own making) and water well. My water is from a borehole so no chlorine but it stands in not perfectly clean watering cans. I put them to acclimatise wherever I am going to let them germinate, propagator or greenhouse, for a day. I sow fine seed on the surface and cover with fine vermiculite, similarly with medium seed but cover with 50/50 compost and vermiculite, bigger seeds are pressed in. I never water until the seeds have germinated keeping the surface moist with a hand sprayer kept at the same temperature as the seed tray. The only other thing I can think of is don't sow too thickly, I sow a lot of things painstakingly singly.
(* If you want to be naughty I collected this information from somewhere. Cheshunt Compound : Weigh 60g of Copper Sulphate & 330g of Ammonium Carbonate. These two are well powdered and well mixed. The dry mixture is stood in an airtight glass container for 24 hours before use. About 25g of this mixture is dissolved in hot water and the solution is made up to 8 litres with cold water and used for soil drenching.)

[sally wright]

Dear All,
I sow a lot of fine seeds and this is the method I have evolved to keep the Damping Off to a minimum.
wash all seed trays in hot soapy water and dry seperately (if you stack them when wet they stick together). Clean the labels at the same time.

If you are using home saved seed it is important when collecting it not to have it contaminated with garden soil so be careful with the seeds pods. Outdoor soil will contain a lot of contaminents which you do not want in your seed trays. Likewise try to keep the seed clean when removing the shells, husks etc and use clean bags for storage.

Use a new bag of seed and cutting compost (something that has been lurking around since last year will have all sorts of spores wafted into it). I would also mix it 1 - 4: sand to compost for added drainage. Sieve the mixture at this stage if the compost you have bought is at all lumpy as this will make pricking out easier.

Cleanliness is everything so put down a clean sheet of plastic or some sheets of newspaper on the potting bench before starting. Don't forget to wash your hands as well.

To prepare the seed tray it should be filled to no more than about 1/2 way, any more just wastes compost imho. The seeds are only in the trays for a few weeks at most after all. Roughly fill the tray to just over the 1/2 way mark and then lift the tray off the potting bench about 2-3 inches and drop it back onto the surface two or three times. This gets rid of voids in the compost gently and avoids compacting the compost unevenly. Levelling the compost is easier to do if you make yourself a spreader. Get a small board and cut off two small squares at the corners so that one edge is 1/2 way down the inside of the seed tray. This is then scraped back and forth over the compost to remove the excess. Then get yourself another board with a dowel screwed to the back to make it into a stamper which fits into your seed tray. Press lightly down and you now have a properly filled seed tray.

Use vermiculite to cover the seed, this allows light to the seeds and gives better germination rates. However the vermiculite should be sieved to get rid of the very finest particles before use (these may be mixed into compost to avoid wasting them entirely) as these can pan down and prevent very fine seeds from germinating. Sift on some vermiculite until the seeds are covered.

Vermiculite is very light and can easily be dislodged until it has been wetted so it may be useful to use the mist setting on your trigger hose or a sprayer for the initial wetting. Dont forget to start it away from the seed tray as the initial gout of water can splatter the seeds all over the windows.

The kind of water you use is also important. Fresh tap water only please. If you are using a sprayer or watering can; rinse both out with fresh water before using them on your seeds.

If you do end up with the dreaded Damping off there are a few non chemical ways to help reduce the devastation. Isolate any suspect trays. Remove the dead patch of seedlings and about 1/2 inch or 1-2 cms of healthy plants around the hole. This has two benefits, it removes the contamination and dries out the edge of the patch where the fungus has been growing. If the seed tray is very soggy place it on an old towel or several sheets of newspaper to try and dry it out. Prick out the seedlings as soon as possible. Do not transplant any seedlings with flabby brown roots as although they may not be keeling over yet they will probably do so within a couple of days and it is a waste of time, compost and space to use them.

I hope these tips will help.
Regards Sally Wright.
BTW Geoff it says on my old tim one level teaspoon of Cheshunt compound to one pint of water.

[Ricard with an H]

Almost controversial differences regarding hygiene but very interesting, I have this image of Sally wearing a gown and scrubbing-up before she enters theatre previously fitted with air-flow-scrubbing techniques used in orthopaedic surgery and whilst i'm giggling at this image it does reinforce my early learning on the subject.

I have never used vermiculite in gardening, clearly I need to use this. And mixing sand with the compost presents a question. Sand bought from builders merchants is sometimes but not always washed, I currently have grit-sand that i'm mixing into my clay-like soil.

Some of my failed seed has been sown into new peat pots and some in food packaging trays that were washed and dried along with our pots in the kitchen so in this case overcrowding seems the likely culprit. I have never paid attention to sowing thinly but will do in all future sowings.

[Geoff]

The old Cheshunt tin I have says the same along with 28 gm / 9 litres which is about the same as above. It also says "contains 15% w/w copper sulphate as a water soluble powder". The mix I found the details of is 60/390 so about the same. I wonder what the Ammonium Carbonate does and was it the same balancing ingredient in the old tins? I have some Copper Sulphate so I wonder if I could use it at 15% of the rate? Sourcing Ammonium Carbonate doesn't seem simple. I also have a formula for Bordeaux Mixture that is Copper Sulphate and Hydrated Lime so is the answer to break the regulations and just spray for damping off and blight with dilute Copper Sulphate? Digging out the research papers that fixed these formulations years ago might prove interesting.
I add builders sharp sand to a lot of compost mixtures. The bit of peat free compost I have bought this year has had sand added then put through the Rotosieve before using for seed sowing.