Organics yet again.

[Johnboy]

Today on BBC Radio 4 You and yours programme, Lord. Krebbs said that conventionally grow produce was perfectly safe to eat because permitted levels of pesticides were set at 100 times below the level where they would be harmful to humans. He went on to say to the Organic representative on the programme it is no use denying that commercial Organic growers use pesticides because they do. After some pondering the organic representative had to admit that they use 35 different pesticides.
How many times have you heard organic people say "NO PESTICIDES" and how many times have I said that commercially that they do use pesticides and today I have been proved right. It has taken nearly from day one of this forum which is damn near 20 years.
JB.

[PLUMPUDDING]

I think the Organic movement has done a good job in raising everyone's awareness of what is commercially applied to our food and has gone a long way to reducing the amount of pesticides that are used now compared to 20 or 30 years ago.

I chose to grow my own fruit and veg.when my children were small because I preferred to know they were eating food with no pesticides on them rather than food with permitted amounts of pesticides.

Obviously on a commercial scale they need to do what they can to get as good a yield as possible and I'm more confident than I used to be about British produce. I can't say I feel the same about stuff from Kenya, Guatemala and Costa Rica etc though.

[tigerburnie]

I rarely eat out now as I like to know where my grubs come from.

[Johnboy]

Hi PP,
I am with you 100% on your growing policy. The only snag is that commercial organic growers once signed up to produce organic they are hooked and the organic masters really are not that helpful. With conventional growing producing for supermarkets they are tied into integrated pest management schemes which are as strict and every bit as strict as organic schemes. It is through these scheme that make British grown produce as safe as organic produce. The snag is that too much of our food, especially super market organic food, is imported. Organics in another countries is not so strict especially where meat and meat products are concerned. I never buy organic but know where everything is produced and and as a general rule buy from local growers only.
The point I was trying to get across is the fact that at last an admission of the use of pesticides by organic growers when for so many years they have used the phrase NO PESTICIDES as a main selling point. THIS WAS A LIE!
JB.

[robo]

You are right jb nothing like being lied too by people who should know better it gets the hackles up

[PLUMPUDDING]

I see your point Johnboy, it's like people saying they're vegetarian but eat fish and chicken. But it's definitely wrong to say produce is grown without pesticides if they use them at all as that is deliberately misleading customers.

[Primrose]

I doubt whether it's really viable to grow organically on a commercial scale without using artificial help of some kind in the form of herbicides or pesticides. I look at my own very limited vegetable growing. I try to grow as naturally as possible but couldn' really manage without slug pellets or spraying my tomatoes if blight is threatened. If you're growing on a commercial scale without any artificial help at all,I question whether you would be able to produce a financially viable crop.

[Pa Snip]

I rarely eat out now as I like to know where my grubs come from.

Witchetty Grub ? or maybe Chafer (wear looser clothing)


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In answer to the topic I do use insecticide and always have done if needs be. At least I know what has been used and how much

[tigerburnie]

I'd sooner eat hose grubs than some of the dodgy meat on the market these days Pa. I like to get meat from the producers at a farmers market. No guarantee that some chemicals or antibiotics haven't been used, eat game quite often to minimise the chance. Even the seeds we buy could well be treated before we grew them, just try to eat and grow as well as is possible without going overboard.

[Westi]

Interesting topic, enjoying the re-visit Johnboy.

I did try to be 100% organic when I started (failed crops are a big wake up), but mostly still try to keep chemicals limited but it all seems hype as we all know there are things allowed within the 'organic' label that time will probably show aren't any safer.

Got to ask though, most of us never knew where our food came from when growing up, was sprayed with, processed with but unknowingly we ate it & we are all here to post & comment. Would also like to see organic feed the masses if we were ever plunged into a war again. I'm not too happy about GM, but don't understand the processes & Hormone treated meat is just cruel to the animal, growing quicker then it's bones & skin can accommodate at times, not to mention my testosterone is at lady level, not sure I'd suit a beard - might hide a few wrinkles though!

[Shallot Man]

You are right jb nothing like being lied too by people who should know better it gets the hackles up

Just like Politicians then .

[Tony Hague]

From the other side of the fence:

https://www.riverford.co.uk/pesticides-you-decide

I have a simpler take on this. It is simply not possible to prove something "safe". It is easy to show something is potentially harmful, you only have to find one causal link with a detrimental effect, or one possible mechanism for harm. To show something safe, you have to eliminate all possible mechanisms for harm. Can't be done - all you can show is that you haven't found a harmful effect yet. Which is why things previously thought safe can be found not so.

In the footnotes he says:

Organic farmers are permitted to use 15 pesticides, derived from natural ingredients including garlic, citronella and clove oil. These can only be used under very restricted circumstances. In reality, the vast majority of organic farmers have no need even for these, and if used the amounts are small.

So he claims only 15, which might depend on who's flavour of organics you choose. I do not feel completely reassured by the argument that they are "derived from natural ingredients" - so are nicotine, opiates, cocaine and curare.

[Johnboy]

Hi Tony,
I appreciate your input because it puts another perspective on what is the truth. What is the truth? Sadly the the organic faction have been found to be guilty of treating their theories as fact to the point where you really cannot believe the scare stories they have spread over the years. I have had contact with organic growing for an awful lot of years and was in fact organic for forty years but when the Soil Association were given Carte Blanche to arrange the rules governing organics in UK entirely to write in there own myth and legend I decided that it was time say goodbye to their set of rules and produce my crop using common sense.
The fact that the organic governing body use No Pesticides as their claim to fame and then find that they do in fact use pesticides which they do not list then alarm bells begin to ring.
I defy any grower to grow fifty acres of any Brassicas without the use of a pesticide or by using garlic, Citronella or clove oil without losing the entire crop to Cabbage White caterpillars!
My thoughts are that the Soil Association come clean and publish the names of the pesticides they use and the rules governing their use. I hasten to add that I am not against them using pesticides but simply be honest with the British Public.
JB.

[Geoff]

I'm not organic. My vegetable area gets no herbicides, I don't use fungicides or insecticides, I do use approved slug pellets. Why am I not organic, I use peat based potting composts and Growmore. Logic?

[Tony Hague]

I have often wondered how organic brassica are possible ! I can only grow them if completely netted with environmesh.

But I do know large scale organic brassica growers. I have only seen garlic sprays being used. I know they use the trick of sowing trefoil into the modules with the brassica to deter cabbage root fly*. We are working with another on applying nematodes for root fly around the plants either when transplanting or weeding.

Quite how they deal with cabbage whites I don't know. Acres of fleece are possible but I haven't seen it. Perhaps I'll get a chance to ask. Some of the problems we struggle with as gardeners are not so bad on a large field scale. An exposed windy site can be an advantage !

* Trefoil trick. Cabbage root flies find a suitable host by a series of trial landings. They need to land ~3 times in succession on brassica leaf before they lay eggs. Sowing a pinch of an unsuitable host plant in the modules reduces the chance of them finding the site suitable. Trefoil is good because it is easily smothered by the brassica later rather than becoming a problem weed, and being a legume it fixes nitrogen too.