Good to hear the doldrums are over for you.
Bread is getting better to more I make.
Trying pizza tonight so left the mix in the bowl for around 3 hours + then intend to knock back and leave for ½ hour then cook.
Wondering at what stage it is best to leave the mix also can I mix the dough up to the rolling out stage and leave for a few hours before using or maybe roll out and leave covered till ready for cooking.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Bread making corner
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Westi
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Good to hear Richard!
Maybe your next wee project is to build yourself a wood / pizza oven in the garden. No raised eyebrows you know you could! It would be a big challenge (the building & then getting used to the temperature, woods to use etc), but that was the way all bread was made in our youth & it did taste nice didn't it? (OK memory is selective but we had a bakery on the corner even in outback Aussie that only had wood to use & bread was lovely).
You are obviously passionate & knowledgable, so this would not give you the doldrums but just challenges to master!
Maybe your next wee project is to build yourself a wood / pizza oven in the garden. No raised eyebrows you know you could! It would be a big challenge (the building & then getting used to the temperature, woods to use etc), but that was the way all bread was made in our youth & it did taste nice didn't it? (OK memory is selective but we had a bakery on the corner even in outback Aussie that only had wood to use & bread was lovely).
You are obviously passionate & knowledgable, so this would not give you the doldrums but just challenges to master!
Westi
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Primrose
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My husband treated himself to a Panasonic automatic breadmaker last year and has been busy experimenting with various recipes. We previously bought Vogel bread but the quality seemed to become more variable. Anyway he has now settled for a 50/50 Strong White flour/wholemeal version which includes mixed seeds, including pumpkin and we are very pleased with it. It produces a nice firm loaf for sandwich and toast cutting, and freezes well.
The breadmaker does take up rather a lot of counter working space in our small kitchen but it's a good workhorse and after a year of use, I don't think we'd want to revert to commercially purchased bread again. The only problem we've ever had was when the tinned yeast became a little stale and that loaf turned out like a solid brick !
The breadmaker does take up rather a lot of counter working space in our small kitchen but it's a good workhorse and after a year of use, I don't think we'd want to revert to commercially purchased bread again. The only problem we've ever had was when the tinned yeast became a little stale and that loaf turned out like a solid brick !
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Ricard with an H
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Primrose. Yes, I find a bread machine very useful though since the doldrums I reverted back to mixing and kneading by hand. The problem for a novice is knowing what the dough should feel like when it's correctly kneaded. Doing this at least once as a student is worthwhile, my bread machine got kicked into the long grass for years because that machine wasn't making bread the way I like it,and that's important, we will all have our preferences.
Colin. Most bread making instructions will give varying proving times, none can be correct for your particular circumstances because flours vary, yeasts can vary and then the temperature of the area you are proving in varies. Never be tempted to force your dough by using higher temperature. There is a given time your yeast will be active enough to inflate the dough. If you pass this point the dough will collapse though that isn't a problem with pizza unless you particularly want a fat dough. I've found a total of four hours proving time to be maximum for yeasted dough, that is 2 x 2 hours, maybe 1 x 1 hour then 1 x 2 hours. For bread your yeast still needs to be viable when it goes into the oven so you get that kick-upp-the-pants effect. Test your dough by pushing a finger into it, if the indentation stays then your dough has over-proved. The finger prod needs to bounce back. Don't forget that if you need to leave your dough until it's convenient to use you can bung it in the fridge, it will still ferment, but slower. Think about that total of four hours, try three hours, then try five hours. You can end up with a lot of useful breadcrumbs made from bread that isn't quite right.
Westi. I have thought about a wood oven outside though as the project was forming in my head that oven was inside a building of sorts so it could be used year round so this made it more complicated. Then I saw the Morso oven and imagined it built into our outside store/blokes cave. When I realized the importance of the baking process for good bread and that a modern fan oven can spoil your bread the whole project is once again buzzing around in my head but new bedroom carpets to the tune of nearly £2000 have made a mess of the fun-fund. It won't go away though.
Colin. Most bread making instructions will give varying proving times, none can be correct for your particular circumstances because flours vary, yeasts can vary and then the temperature of the area you are proving in varies. Never be tempted to force your dough by using higher temperature. There is a given time your yeast will be active enough to inflate the dough. If you pass this point the dough will collapse though that isn't a problem with pizza unless you particularly want a fat dough. I've found a total of four hours proving time to be maximum for yeasted dough, that is 2 x 2 hours, maybe 1 x 1 hour then 1 x 2 hours. For bread your yeast still needs to be viable when it goes into the oven so you get that kick-upp-the-pants effect. Test your dough by pushing a finger into it, if the indentation stays then your dough has over-proved. The finger prod needs to bounce back. Don't forget that if you need to leave your dough until it's convenient to use you can bung it in the fridge, it will still ferment, but slower. Think about that total of four hours, try three hours, then try five hours. You can end up with a lot of useful breadcrumbs made from bread that isn't quite right.
Westi. I have thought about a wood oven outside though as the project was forming in my head that oven was inside a building of sorts so it could be used year round so this made it more complicated. Then I saw the Morso oven and imagined it built into our outside store/blokes cave. When I realized the importance of the baking process for good bread and that a modern fan oven can spoil your bread the whole project is once again buzzing around in my head but new bedroom carpets to the tune of nearly £2000 have made a mess of the fun-fund. It won't go away though.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
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Colin2016
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Thank you very much for your tips Richard. Got to say the pizza was a success last night.
Here’s another one for you, why does the cooked bread look brown on the inside when using white flour?
Here’s another one for you, why does the cooked bread look brown on the inside when using white flour?
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Ricard with an H
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Try this method.
Use 69% hydration for white flour, wholemeal needs more but I never use more than 50/50 in which case increase the hydration to 70% maybe more. For 500 grams of flour @ 69% = 345 mls. or more accurate weigh it =345 grams.
Two tsp salt and two to three tsp quick yeast but keep them away from each other, roughly mix it all together until everything is combined then leave it alone for thirty minutes, this is called autolise. It allows the water and flour to combine and get the yeast started.
Now knead the dough until it gets harder to knead. You will feel the gluten forming and the dough becomes less sticky, don't add more flour to stop it sticking, use a little smear of water. when the dough is ready you'll be able to dangle it from your fingers letting it stretch so thin its like a window pane, if it keeps splitting you need to knead it more. Get this right and you won't need to use a rolling pin for your pizza, just stretch it out.
Put a smear of oil inside your bowl to stop the dough sticking, form the dough into a ball, you may need a smear of water on your hands to release the dough from them and plonk it in the cover. Cover with clingfilm or something and let it prove for an hour or two, it'll be ready when the dough has doubled in size.
Very carefully take the dough out of the bowl trying not to deflate the structure, put it gently on your work surface and GENTLY fold it in on itself a couple times but don't knock it back unless you want a very fine crumb texture like store-bought square white bread. Assuming you are using a tin and assuming it's non stick just lower the dough gently in, no pressing, it'll find its own way. cover the tin with an inflated plastic bag and let rise again. The time depends on how gentle you were and temperature.
Tin sizes vary so you'll need to gain experience about how tall the dough is in the tin when it's risen properly, if you allow a total of four hours for both proving you should be about right.
Good ingredients are always better but technique is where this bread making lark becomes a black art. Accurate measuring and timing is very important.
The oven, well didn't just learn something this week. Baking you bread in a tin seems to lend itself to a fan assisted oven but baking on a baking stone with just bottom heat is better though you may not have that facility.
I found I often baked my bread at too high a temperature so I got a lovely looking loaf that was doughy in the middle, still edible but not right. No point relying on the control knobs of your oven, they are often wildly out. Buy an oven temperature thingy for £6. Now bake your loaf at 200c max for 30 minutes or 230c for 10 minutes then turn it down to 150c for the remaining time. If the loaf looks insipid use go with it and gain experience.
After at least four years I'm still messing up and I have a certificate. (Smile) When Mo got home to the first bread after the doldrums she half the loaf before speaking, prior to that she started buying bread but said nothing. That was a clue.
Colin, the flour you buy hasn't been whitened/bleached with Chlorine Dioxide so you end up with a creamy colour. If you want white I think some French flours that are milled super-fine and etc. Its banned in the UK, or so I'm told
Use 69% hydration for white flour, wholemeal needs more but I never use more than 50/50 in which case increase the hydration to 70% maybe more. For 500 grams of flour @ 69% = 345 mls. or more accurate weigh it =345 grams.
Two tsp salt and two to three tsp quick yeast but keep them away from each other, roughly mix it all together until everything is combined then leave it alone for thirty minutes, this is called autolise. It allows the water and flour to combine and get the yeast started.
Now knead the dough until it gets harder to knead. You will feel the gluten forming and the dough becomes less sticky, don't add more flour to stop it sticking, use a little smear of water. when the dough is ready you'll be able to dangle it from your fingers letting it stretch so thin its like a window pane, if it keeps splitting you need to knead it more. Get this right and you won't need to use a rolling pin for your pizza, just stretch it out.
Put a smear of oil inside your bowl to stop the dough sticking, form the dough into a ball, you may need a smear of water on your hands to release the dough from them and plonk it in the cover. Cover with clingfilm or something and let it prove for an hour or two, it'll be ready when the dough has doubled in size.
Very carefully take the dough out of the bowl trying not to deflate the structure, put it gently on your work surface and GENTLY fold it in on itself a couple times but don't knock it back unless you want a very fine crumb texture like store-bought square white bread. Assuming you are using a tin and assuming it's non stick just lower the dough gently in, no pressing, it'll find its own way. cover the tin with an inflated plastic bag and let rise again. The time depends on how gentle you were and temperature.
Tin sizes vary so you'll need to gain experience about how tall the dough is in the tin when it's risen properly, if you allow a total of four hours for both proving you should be about right.
Good ingredients are always better but technique is where this bread making lark becomes a black art. Accurate measuring and timing is very important.
The oven, well didn't just learn something this week. Baking you bread in a tin seems to lend itself to a fan assisted oven but baking on a baking stone with just bottom heat is better though you may not have that facility.
I found I often baked my bread at too high a temperature so I got a lovely looking loaf that was doughy in the middle, still edible but not right. No point relying on the control knobs of your oven, they are often wildly out. Buy an oven temperature thingy for £6. Now bake your loaf at 200c max for 30 minutes or 230c for 10 minutes then turn it down to 150c for the remaining time. If the loaf looks insipid use go with it and gain experience.
After at least four years I'm still messing up and I have a certificate. (Smile) When Mo got home to the first bread after the doldrums she half the loaf before speaking, prior to that she started buying bread but said nothing. That was a clue.
Colin, the flour you buy hasn't been whitened/bleached with Chlorine Dioxide so you end up with a creamy colour. If you want white I think some French flours that are milled super-fine and etc. Its banned in the UK, or so I'm told
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
Hi,
Just thought I'd share Mr Pawtys bread. Same method as mine (using the magi mix), however he turns the dough into a bread basket and then bakes the bread in a terracotta casserole. Yum.
Just thought I'd share Mr Pawtys bread. Same method as mine (using the magi mix), however he turns the dough into a bread basket and then bakes the bread in a terracotta casserole. Yum.
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Ricard with an H
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That looks very good, not easy to get the dough into the oven without collapsing. What is the flour/water ration and how much yeast do you use please. I sometimes struggle with free form loaves. If I get the lightness I want in the finished bread the dough is usually too wet for free form and becomes more flat.
Well done Mr Pawty.
Is the terracotta casserole a purpose made bread baking thingy (I forgot what they are called) with the very close fitting lid ?
Well done Mr Pawty.
Is the terracotta casserole a purpose made bread baking thingy (I forgot what they are called) with the very close fitting lid ?
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
Hi,
500g white bread flour (this one was Waitrose own), 2 teaspoon salt, 1 teaspoon yeast, tepid water - the magimix pusher full plus 1 cm and then another 1 cm. mix with the white dough 'blade' (not a hook). Let it rise until it fills the magi mix. Themn fold/knead on a lightly oiled board. Put in a floured bread basket. Heat the oven to 230'.
The pot we use in an old thing I bought as a student, but is a bit like a Dutch oven with a lid. Key is to pre heat this in a 230' oven. Then put the dough in for 30 min with lid on, then 20 min with the lid off.
Quite a lazy loaf really (but looks and tastes good) but just shows anyone can do it at low cost. I don't bother with the basket or the pot !
Everyone should give it a go. Mr Pawty had supper with cheddar and taleggio!
Pawty
500g white bread flour (this one was Waitrose own), 2 teaspoon salt, 1 teaspoon yeast, tepid water - the magimix pusher full plus 1 cm and then another 1 cm. mix with the white dough 'blade' (not a hook). Let it rise until it fills the magi mix. Themn fold/knead on a lightly oiled board. Put in a floured bread basket. Heat the oven to 230'.
The pot we use in an old thing I bought as a student, but is a bit like a Dutch oven with a lid. Key is to pre heat this in a 230' oven. Then put the dough in for 30 min with lid on, then 20 min with the lid off.
Quite a lazy loaf really (but looks and tastes good) but just shows anyone can do it at low cost. I don't bother with the basket or the pot !
Everyone should give it a go. Mr Pawty had supper with cheddar and taleggio!
Pawty
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Ricard with an H
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Thanks, as you say. "Anyone can do it" though I have proved that slight variation in technique or ingredients can change the end product quite dramatically.
My use of the smaller upper oven and baking on a stone makes a massive difference but I always struggle with free form bread. I like my bread to be light so my dough is wet at between 67% and 69%.
You didn't say how much water you use, very important.
I must buy a bread cloth but they are expensive mistakes if you don't like the end result.
My use of the smaller upper oven and baking on a stone makes a massive difference but I always struggle with free form bread. I like my bread to be light so my dough is wet at between 67% and 69%.
You didn't say how much water you use, very important.
I must buy a bread cloth but they are expensive mistakes if you don't like the end result.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
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Ricard with an H
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I just made my first bread with a cloche, two partially glazed clay bowls with one being the lid though I doubt the connection was even close to a good fit enough to retain moisture. However, Im impressed with the result though the loaf is still to hot to cut.
More lift at a time I'm struggling with lift and it was my usual wet dough.
Thank you Pawty and Mr Pawty.
More lift at a time I'm struggling with lift and it was my usual wet dough.
Thank you Pawty and Mr Pawty.
How are you supposed to start and maintain a healthy lifestyle if it completely removes a wine lover’s reason to live?
Richard.
Richard.
Hi Richard - sounds like it worked well. Hope it tasted yum!
Just checked and it's 350ml mr Pawty adds (to 500grams of flour) ... give or take a few ml....
We've had a few shockers in the past though... which we put down to the tin of yeast being open a while .... not necassarily out of date, just not very fresh.
We've tried Canadian flour A few times. It's very good but probably not so much that you pay twice as much for it. Worth trying when Waitrose have it on offer though!
Pawty
Just checked and it's 350ml mr Pawty adds (to 500grams of flour) ... give or take a few ml....
We've had a few shockers in the past though... which we put down to the tin of yeast being open a while .... not necassarily out of date, just not very fresh.
We've tried Canadian flour A few times. It's very good but probably not so much that you pay twice as much for it. Worth trying when Waitrose have it on offer though!
Pawty